09-11-2002 00:18									#61
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I find that a person labeled a rascist normally has a whole lot of #2. Please forgive me I couldn't resist.

perhaps you like the Oxford definition better.

	09-11-2002 00:20									#62
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quote: No. Its still a factual statement

How so? If you "plug in" any race into the same environment, could you infer that that race is more likely to commit violent crimes? It's nonsensical to draw such a conclusion.

quote: If you specified the area where the violent crime was being committed, then you would only be referring to members of that race that live in that area. Would that be more acceptable

And what if the specific high-crime area was multi-racial or even multi-ethnic, but similar in all other socio-economic circumstances? Could you draw the same relationships between race and crime?

quote: Its still a statement of fact, so I don't have a problem with it.

Statement of fact? More like completely irrational generalization. How can anyone establish a link between skin color and degree of "corruptness"? (whatever that is.)
I need look no further than the city I live in to prove wrong what you say. The degree of violent crime is greater in poor parts of Detroit, period. There are large, middle-class populations of all races. And none are have a greater propensity than the other to commit crime. It's a money thing. Not a race thing.

	09-11-2002 00:21									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave But the infringement of other rights, such as equal protection under the law, freedom from unwarranted searches, and harrassment based on racial profile are ,of course,perfectly acceptable. After all, you never know what those crazy ni###rs might be up to.

Ferndale police seem to make it a policy to stop any car coming up Woodward past 8mile Rd.

I've seen it many times driving there. And for those not familiar with the Detroit Metro area, 8mile Rd. is the dividing line between the 'City' and the 'Burbs'.

	09-11-2002 00:25									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp You are not omniscient. You do not know which race commits more violent crime. You might comment on which races are more likely to be accused of crimes, more likely to be arrested for them, more likely to be charged, less likely to have the charge dropped, less likely to have access to quality representation, more likely to be convicted by a jury, etc, etc. See where the flaws creep in?

Yes, but I think the statement is still a reasonable assumption when supported by facts. Its like you're saying "How do you know there aren't hordes of whites frequently committing violent crime that isnt reported?". We don't know, but its a reasonable assumption that there aren't.

	09-11-2002 00:25									#65
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quote: I've seen it many times driving there. And for those not familiar with the Detroit Metro area, 8mile Rd. is the dividing line between the 'City' and the 'Burbs'.

And a pretty good movie, from what I hear.

	09-11-2002 00:27									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Caligastia; I agree that definition is bad. I heard a commedian who once said that white people are right to be prejudice. If you are white and you are walking down the street, at night, in his old neighborhood, and you see three N***ers walking towards you... RUN!!! What a racist commedian. Yet, he pretty well defined the difference between racism and prejudism. Racism is a result of ignorance, Prejudism is the result of education.

I need you to define more clearly what you mean by "racism" before I can comment.

	09-11-2002 00:37									#67
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Caligastia, according to you, what are the different characteristics among asians, whites and blacks?

	09-11-2002 00:39									#68
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave How so? If you "plug in" any race into the same environment, could you infer that that race is more likely to commit violent crimes? It's nonsensical to draw such a conclusion.

Why? If one particular race is in an environment that fosters violence, and is regularly arrested for violent crimes, then it seems reasonable to me to state that that race is more likely to commit violent crimes.

quote: And what if the specific high-crime area was multi-racial or even multi-ethnic, but similar in all other socio-economic circumstances? Could you draw the same relationships between race and crime?

Of course. That would make the statement even more likely to be true.

quote: Statement of fact? More like completely irrational generalization. How can anyone establish a link between skin color and degree of "corruptness"? (whatever that is.)

If one particular race is consistently over-represented in violent crime, you don't see a link between race and crime?

quote: I need look no further than the city I live in to prove wrong what you say. The degree of violent crime is greater in poor parts of Detroit, period. There are large, middle-class populations of all races. And none are have a greater propensity than the other to commit crime. It's a money thing. Not a race thing.

And which race is in the majority in the poor parts of Detroit?

	09-11-2002 00:51									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Yes, but I think the statement is still a reasonable assumption when supported by facts. Its like you're saying "How do you know there aren't hordes of whites frequently committing violent crime that isnt reported?". We don't know, but its a reasonable assumption that there aren't.

I think it's an equally reasonable assumption that there aren't hordes of black people committing violent crime, Caligastia.

	09-11-2002 00:54									#70
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Let's look at a pet favourite of mine, the case of the Cardiff 3. I campaigned for their release while I lived in Cardiff.

A prostitute was murdered. The police went out looking for a lone white man seen with blood on his hands and clothing.

They arrested three black men. On confession-only evidence, they were convicted. Hey presto! Three more violent black murderers on the stat books.

The fact that they were innocent was merely incidental.

	09-11-2002 00:57									#71
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quote: And which race is in the majority in the poor parts of Detroit?

Depends entirely on the neighborhood. We have large populations of Hispanics, Arab-Americans, Vietnamese, and just about everybody else. Which is why it is flatly impossible to say one race is more likely than another to commit any form of crime.

	09-11-2002 02:05									#72
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave Depends entirely on the neighborhood. We have large populations of Hispanics, Arab-Americans, Vietnamese, and just about everybody else. Which is why it is flatly impossible to say one race is more likely than another to commit any form of crime.

But you can say that a multi-ethnical society breeds violence

	09-11-2002 02:05									#73
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quote: If one particular race is consistently over-represented in violent crime, you don't see a link between race and crime?

No, because it doesn't take into account the myriad of reasons and causalities, outside of race, for why such an over-representation is taking place. You can't just look at a set of statistics and assume that the color of one's skin equals a greater propensity for violent crime.

See my previous example about middle class neighborhoods in detroit. Minority middle-class and affluent neighborhoods, devoid of poverty, drugs, and family disarray, have no higher rates of crime than white neighborhoods within city limits. Stripped of other negative influences, blacks(hispanics or other minorities) aren't committing more crimes than whites in their respective areas.

	09-11-2002 02:12									#74
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quote: If one particular race is consistently over-represented in violent crime, you don't see a link between race and crime?

It's clear that the over-representation of certain "races" (what a loaded term) in violent crime is due to the over-representation of these "races" in situations that foster violent crime; i.e. living in an inner city ghetto.

	09-11-2002 02:30									#75
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Cali:

quote: I need you to define more clearly what you mean by "racism" before I can comment.

I agree with the definition you gave, but only #1, #2 does not adequatly define it. Discrimination is racist, I think, but prejudice does not.

Where prejudism is: preconceived judgment or opinion (taken from Merriam-Webster dictionary). Note: I do not agree the first definition of the word.

I also want to point out that the dictionary uses prejudice to describe racism, but does not use racism to describe prejudism. Hmmm, I guess the words aren't interchangeable.

quote: You can't just look at a set of statistics and assume that the color of one's skin equals a greater propensity for violent crime.

What? Yes you can. You also stated:

quote: No, because it doesn't take into account the myriad of reasons and causalities, outside of race, for why such an over-representation is taking place.

This is true. Yet, if a greater number of specific race is committing a higher number of crimes than other races, than would it no be safe to conclude that a greater number of that race committing the crimes is more subjected to the "myriad of reasons and causalities" that cause them to commit the crime?

You can't just look at someone and judge their up bringing and moral/ethical values. Yet, if statistics show that a specific race in a certain area have a greater propensity to display certain characteristics, than those characteristics would be projected upon that race.

That is why, IMO, racial profiling exists, and while morally wrong is, to me, understandable.

	09-11-2002 02:52									#76
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Just logged in so I missed the start of this thread...

Why are people posting in yet another Cali race-thread?

	09-11-2002 02:54									#77
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Good point, Hueij.

	09-11-2002 02:55									#78
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Because we are all gluttons for punishment.

	09-11-2002 02:59									#79
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I'm out!

	09-11-2002 03:07									#80
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"But you can say that a multi-ethnical society breeds violence"

Good one, lets start a new thread about how many inane things you can say with statistics.

prejudice and racism certainly aren't interchangeable. Prejudice is a much wider term regarding coming to conclusions, no matter what they are, about people, places, things etc.. without the benefit of experience or knowledge of those people, place... A much more general term.(my own definition, does anyone disagree significantly?)

Racism deals with conclusions specifically based on race. Believing that a person is x% more likely to do x because of whatever group he might be in, even if you're allowing for individual difference, is a prejudice. This prejudice can very easily, but not always lead to discrimination. Much like marijuana is a gateway drug... DOH! didn't mean to say that.

	09-11-2002 03:07									#81
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Because it's the forum equivalent of a sympathy ****.

	09-11-2002 03:16									#82
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I'm out!

	09-11-2002 03:27									#83
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quote: Yet, if a greater number of specific race is committing a higher number of crimes than other races, than would it no be safe to conclude that a greater number of that race committing the crimes is more subjected to the "myriad of reasons and causalities" that cause them to commit the crime?

But they're not any more or less subject to the same causalities because of their racial makeup. That is absolutely baseless from a scientific perspective.

Again, stripped of all negative influences and pressures, you can't say certain races are more prone to commit crimes than others.

	09-11-2002 07:09									#84
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Remember when Cali said he was going to end all his race-baiting trolls?

Stop laughing. He really said he'd do that! Honest!

	09-11-2002 07:16									#85
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We're back to your favorite subject, Calster.

Anyway, racist government policy combined with social racism has historically, denied people equal opportunity based on race, and it still continues today. Companies discriminate based on race, but are not caught, because they invent a false, trumped up reason.

Racist discrimination perpetuates poverty, due to lack of opportunities to improve one's livliehood. Poverty, in turn, increases the possibility of impoverished people to turn to criminal activity, regardless what race you are.

So, fundamentally, racist discrimination has caused many individuals within the minority groups to turn to criminal activity, not race itself.

	09-11-2002 07:30									#86
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun We're back to your favorite subject, Calster. Anyway, racist government policy combined with social racism has historically, denied people equal opportunity based on race, and it still continues today. Companies discriminate based on race, but are not caught, because they invent a false, trumped up reason. Racist discrimination perpetuates poverty, due to lack of opportunities to improve one's livliehood. Poverty, in turn, increases the possibility of impoverished people to turn to criminal activity, regardless what race you are. So, fundamentally, racist discrimination has caused many individuals within the minority groups to turn to criminal activity, not "race" itself.

I think it should be changed to this:

Anyway, "racist" government policy combined with social "racism" has historically, denied people equal opportunity based on race, and it still continues today. Companies discriminate based on "race", but are not caught, because they invent a false, trumped up reason.

"racist" discrimination perpetuates poverty, due to lack of opportunities to improve one's livliehood. Poverty, in turn, increases the possibility of impoverished people to turn to criminal activity, regardless what "race" you are.

So, fundamentally, "racist" discrimination has caused many individuals within the minority groups to turn to criminal activity, not "race" itself.


At least according to others in this thread, since we are all the same "race".

ACK!

	09-11-2002 07:39									#87
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It is established fact that the black race has more genetic diversity than the others simply because it is much older.

There are nations in the Western Hemisphere that are primarily black which have a much lower violent crime rate than that of US whites or asians, yet the black majority of these nations came from the same areas of Africa as US blacks.

	09-11-2002 09:08									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove There are nations in the Western Hemisphere that are primarily black which have a much lower violent crime rate than that of US whites or asians, yet the black majority of these nations came from the same areas of Africa as US blacks.

I hate to feed Cali and the couple other rightwing race-baiters but...

The academic performance disparity is also absent in most Caribbean nations.

Now that is the only post I will make in this threadola crapola.

	09-11-2002 10:52									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Sampling fallacy.

How and why?

	09-11-2002 10:56									#90
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis There is not enough evidence for me to decide if all races are equal. They seem to be pretty much the same, but pretty much doesn't cut it here, because that is not the point here right? Believing something just because it seems so nice and fair is just lame.

What makes you think there are separate races? Establish that, before we start debating on if some races are better than others.