10-11-2002 13:16									#1
	Give PTW a chance! Suffering from ads?

First off Im new to apolyton. Not new to Civ, any of them. Played Civ2 till the CD wore out (ok not really). Im really frustrated with PTW, but I'm patient. Yes everyone agrees that it sucks over the performance. ok it more then sucks but hey, Let them get us a patch and see how it goes. PTW has awesome potential specially for all you die-hard Civ fans who been around since Civnet. Personally i feel Civ 1, 2 and 3 are the best PC games ever. Never have i had a game i can keep coming back to even after years of having it. Give them a chance to make the patch Im sure none of us will be sorry.

PS

This forum is great!

	10-11-2002 20:03									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The problem is not in giving PTW a chance or not. We all want it to work, because, well, we're all gonna buy it in the end, else we wouldn't be here, would we? (There are some haunted souls that will not agree, but...)

The problem is we are getting tired of this lame gaming industry policy: to release a game unfinished and/or buggy as hell and then trying to fix it with some patches. I'd rather believe that Infogrames is the one to blame here; I still think that the Firaxis guys have some love for what they do...

In the past, patches were used to correct flaws in the games, it was almost an embarassment for the people involved in the development of that title -- "look, we're really sorry, I mean, these bugs went unnoticed, but here is a patch that will fix this situation. Now we have to get ready for the whipping, excuse us".

Now, patches are almost part of the development cycle -- "we're happy to announce the release of the patch v1.9.77.25p, that fixes some problems with the original game, in the same spirit of the 15 patches that preceded it. And we have good news for our customers: the next patch will be available in three weeks from now, and with it we'll be closing the development of our game. Thanks to all your invaluable help, our game is now properly finished and functional, two years after it was released. Oh, and we'd like to announce that our newest project is ready for its first patch, which will be released one month before the original game, because our main goal will always be to satisfy our customers!"

	10-11-2002 20:20									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Its sad but true!!

That said I will be getting PTW as soon as it hits the UK shops. Ok Ill just have to go through the process of downloading the latest patch but what else can a self confessed civ addict do ?

	10-11-2002 21:27									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

What´s really sad is that everybody accepts it...

	10-11-2002 22:27									#5
	Accepting What? Enter the AD-FREE zone

I've played the Civ & SMAC series since the early days of Civ 1 and this iteration Civ3 AND it's PTW expansion, has been the single worst gaming experience of my gaming days - perhaps because I expected so much. I have as YET to complete a SINGLE game because they all eventually bug out and crash during a turn run - and none of the patches have helped.

EDIT: screw this, if my only choice is Inforgrames support, whose answer to everything seems to be update your drivers (they are), defrag (I do), then this PoS IS going back. When the freaking game crashes DURING A TURN RUN, it's a problem with YOUR GAME, not my system.
I can run FPS, RTS, TBS, MMPOGS on my rig JUST fine, it's just this piece of tripe that will crash.

Suffice it to say, unless I get some sort of satisfaction, I'm taking PTW back to the store. I only WISH I could send back my original Civ3 for a refund as well.

This has been such a negative experience that I would rather be wasting time with MS Train Simulator than this tripe.

Last edited by be0wulfe on 10-11-2002 at 22:37

	10-11-2002 22:45									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Comments from a non-TBS fan...

The real issue here is over the casual game buyer. The hardcore fans, like yourself, will stick by the game no matter what. Even if it requires 10 patches, you'll be ok with that. But most others won't. This is even more true for expansions which are optional. I personally see very little reason to buy the expansion. The features added to single player games aren't important enough and the multiplayer is all messed up

BTW, Civ 1 one of the best games of all time... Civ II was an excellent game... and Civ III is just ok (nothing great )...

KoalaBear33

	10-11-2002 22:47									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Give PTW a chance!

I thought that the chance was already given last year, with Civ3.

	10-11-2002 23:11									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

yup i think koala said something very true. the hardcore civvers will probably buy it, but the civ newbies and others wont tolerate such product.

	10-11-2002 23:35									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I got sick of civilisationIII after a week. After a long waiting time for a patch, I gave up. I waited for this expansion to bring the missing part of the gameplay (yet, I think it's a retarded game compared to civ II). Now that I see the low ranking of this game everywhere (like gamespot), my only thought is Firaxis just destroyed the whole civilization serie with their money making policies and customer traps like what they just did.

	10-11-2002 23:35									#10
	Tired of ads?

That's true I even preordered the game .
But now i get to play a couple of games
so it started to pay back already.

	10-11-2002 23:38									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

However, gathering from what I have read, the only really lousy feature is multiplayer. Supposedly all of the Single player additions work pefectly.

IMHO, I would rather have a better AI then Multiplayer. TBS just isn't made to have multiplay.

I would be happy to purchase this product even if the only thing it contained is extra civs. If it was just multiplayer, I would'nt care. If I want multiplay, I'll turn on Warcraft.

quote: The features added to single player games arn't impertant enough

6 civs, several terrain improvements, a terrain set, 2 improvements, a wonder, severel new game types?

I rest my case.

	11-11-2002 00:47									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: [SIZE=1] The problem is we are getting tired of this lame gaming industry policy: to release a game unfinished and/or buggy as hell and then trying to fix it with some patches. I'd rather believe that Infogrames is the one to blame here; I still think that the Firaxis guys have some love for what they do...

I guess you are right alexnm Its a shame nowadays, I remember when game companys used to try and make a game that everyone would enjoy and never want to put down, and try to out do the other guy. Now its all about the money. Well I refuse to take my game back! I just hope that there will be people out there to play PTW when they fix the problem!

	11-11-2002 01:05									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

i gave it a chance. it sucks. it doesn't work. i'm not going to elaborate and start a flame war. you know my points.

but, i also love civ as a game. of course i want it to be patched, of course i want to be able to play the game long enough to enjoy it without lag or crashes, but this piece of crap they let out is none of that.

people have every right to complain.

also, a terrain set is worthless. theres tons of fan made ones. the city improvements aren't that important. the stock exchange was in civ2, and civil defense is too far down the tech tree to ever see, especially if the game crashes every 2 hours.

the game types, i really don't care for them but i guess they're a welcome addition for some people. i don't see why a mutation of civ is civ at all, but whatever.

firaxis effed up and they know it. the price drops $5 within 2 weeks of release, there are several reviews giving it a failing grade (< 65%), etc.

i'd honestly like a firaxian to come out and admit that they messed up, and i'd honestly (as someone planning to go into the industry) want to know why it happened. if it was infogrammes pushing them (as people speculate) i'd like to know. if it was just shotty code tested on standardized machines in a closed invironment, i'd like to know.

again, civ is one of my favorite games, and i'll continue to support the series. if firaxis went under today and did nothing with PTW, and civ4 came out 2 years from now, i know i'd probably buy it. there'd be some hesitation, but i'd end up doing it.

fix it firaxis. we're here. we're waiting. we're fans.

	11-11-2002 01:08									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The thing is I do not see how anyone can overlay their taste on anothers. Most of the complaints are quite valid, but me I have enjoyed the game and PTW has add to it for me. That the problems are real and trend is not good, is true as well.

	11-11-2002 01:14									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 The thing is I do not see how anyone can overlay their taste on anothers. Most of the complaints are quite valid, but me I have enjoyed the game and PTW has add to it for me. That the problems are real and trend is not good, is true as well.

im not trying to overlay my tastes on anyone. This is my first posting. Just wanted to let people know how big a fan i was. Secondly I love the possibility of PTW so much I just want people to be here when it's fix. I agree with everything UberKrux <~~sorry if i spelled it wrong. and I agree with what most everyone said here. Its horrible. Probably the worst MP game to be released. I JUST WANT TO PLAY IT!!!

	11-11-2002 02:22									#16
	Re: Accepting What? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by be0wulfe I've played the Civ & SMAC series since the early days of Civ 1 and this iteration Civ3 AND it's PTW expansion, has been the single worst gaming experience of my gaming days.

	11-11-2002 03:52									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

if any of you have ever played ctp or ctp2 you would be much more apreciative. i've only have civ3 crash once.... i had never gotten past the late renisance in ctp because it crashed so often.

the reason for patches is that you can't release a perfect game if you wan't to keep up in the industry... at least firaxes makes patches.
how it currently is the patches are in respose to all of our playtesting. because there are so many possibilities of things that can happen in a civ3 game, it would be nearly impossible for firaxes to play test all of it alone.
i really don't see what is wrong with ptw(although the unit sets they promissed would be nice, and gallic sowrdsman becoming obselete to medieval infantry is skrewy...), then again i haven't tried multiplayer yet.

	11-11-2002 04:13									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What I don't get:

I got civ3 as soon as it was released. When I found out there wasn't any scenarios or ways to make them I didn't play it anymore. And now PTW hasn't got scenarios either, as I've read in this forum.
I just don't get it! In 1996 when civ2 came out there were scenarios, and I only played the game because of them. But now, we've waited more than a year since civ3 came out and we STILL haven't got them?? WTF!

	11-11-2002 05:30									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX firaxis effed up and they know it. the price drops $5 within 2 weeks of release, there are several reviews giving it a failing grade (< 65%), etc. i'd honestly like a firaxian to come out and admit that they messed up, and i'd honestly (as someone planning to go into the industry) want to know why it happened. if it was infogrammes pushing them (as people speculate) i'd like to know. if it was just shotty code tested on standardized machines in a closed invironment, i'd like to know.

You deserve an answer Uber, but I fear you won't get one from a Firaxian. Do you think it would be wise for them to publically slag the people who write the cheques? Do you slag your 'boss' in public?

Keep in mind that Infog owns the franchise. Firaxis was hired to code. I would imagine it went something like this...

Firaxis submits each version to Infog. They'd have to or the Infog testers listed in the manual would have nothing to test. The game hits release candidate versions...

The bean counters at Infog grab the first or second version to be a candidate and send it to have cds pressed. The cds and distribution take a little bit of time. That small window gives Firaxis a chance to whip up whatever improvements they can in a short space of time. They produce 3 more versions in short order et voila... you have a patch out on release day.

I'm not sure, but I think what I have laid out is an entirely plausible scenario. It may have happened too.

	11-11-2002 05:32									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Minmaster, I am civ newbie (my first civ was civ3) and I gotta say I like PtW very much.

Christmann, wait a bit, I am creating a scenario now . It will be a scenario of current day earth with 24 countries (of course many names/stats will be changed) and barbarians using guerillas (representing various freedom fighters and terrorist organizations, like IRA or ETA). I don't however have any 3D editor so leader heads will remain unchanged. Currently I've already prepared the rules and put Italian, British and Spanish cities on the map. So, it will still take quite a long time to finish it.

	11-11-2002 07:18									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You deserve an answer Uber, but I fear you won't get one from a Firaxian. Do you think it would be wise for them to publically slag the people who write the cheques? Do you slag your 'boss' in public? Keep in mind that Infog owns the franchise. Firaxis was hired to code. I would imagine it went something like this... Firaxis submits each version to Infog. They'd have to or the Infog testers listed in the manual would have nothing to test. The game hits release candidate versions... The bean counters at Infog grab the first or second version to be a candidate and send it to have cds pressed. The cds and distribution take a little bit of time. That small window gives Firaxis a chance to whip up whatever improvements they can in a short space of time. They produce 3 more versions in short order et voila... you have a patch out on release day. I'm not sure, but I think what I have laid out is an entirely plausible scenario. It may have happened too.

The Scenario is very possible it is the way the industry works

If you look over the last chat logs I asked Jeff if Infogrames gave them a date to to deliver by and He said more or less (something along those lines). It was the last question.

To add to that Infogrames reserves the right to sue Firaxis for any expected revenues and any fronted royalties if they miss just one benchmark date.

	11-11-2002 07:41									#22
	Re: Accepting What? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by be0wulfe I've played the Civ & SMAC series since the early days of Civ 1 and this iteration Civ3 AND it's PTW expansion, has been the single worst gaming experience of my gaming days

Wow. You must be living a charmed gaming life, cause it seems for every good replayable game I get, there are several duds that I never touch again.

Outpost-sigh
C&C:tiberian Sun: waste
X-Com 2:TftD: worse graphics than the previous game.
and there are far more than these, and thats not even counting console games. (shudders as remembers first purchased NES game-Jaws-quickly returned for Zelda)

quote: Originally posted by be0wulfe complete a SINGLE game because they all eventually bug out and crash during a turn run - and none of the patches have helped.

You've never had an SP game not crash? Sounds like some internal issues. I don't think I've seen even the loudest detractor claim that SP has never functioned. Its crashed for me maybe 3 times.

About tech support: I have heard the converse, at least early on, that they actually were prompt in replies

of course that was early in the games life, long before the problems of PTW...

If you post your problems in the Civhelp section(unless you already have), perhaps someone here could help you.

	11-11-2002 18:55									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Kingof the Apes If I want multiplay, I'll turn on Warcraft.

What if one wants a multiplayer TBS?

KoalaBear33

	11-11-2002 20:01									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: What if one wants a multiplayer TBS?

Warcraft, with a 14,4 Kb modem

	11-11-2002 22:13									#25
	I think I understand... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Keep in mind that Infog owns the franchise. Firaxis was hired to code. I would imagine it went something like this... Firaxis submits each version to Infog. They'd have to or the Infog testers listed in the manual would have nothing to test. The game hits release candidate versions... The bean counters at Infog grab the first or second version to be a candidate and send it to have cds pressed. The cds and distribution take a little bit of time. That small window gives Firaxis a chance to whip up whatever improvements they can in a short space of time. They produce 3 more versions in short order et voila... you have a patch out on release day. I'm not sure, but I think what I have laid out is an entirely plausible scenario. It may have happened too.

Makes sense to me. And I can even understand the motivations on both sides. Of course Firaxis wants to do the best job possible, and they'd be pissed that Infogrames held them to their promised release date. But Infogrames had to pay money to advertisers, set up retailers, schedule deliveries before the holidays, and it's all based on timing.

For you homeowners out there, have you ever dealt with contractors? What if you were redoing your kitchen and your contractor told you in October that he wants to do the planned work "right" but that will take you into the winter and he'll have to charge you more money to do the work. You'd like to wait that long, but you'd like to have heat, so you need it finished -- so he does a half-assed job, and says it's your fault for rushing him.

Who do you blame? The contractor (developer) for not taking into account complications when he gave you an estimate? The weather (industry), for putting these constraints on the work? The homeowner (publisher), for not being flexible or rich enough to accomodate the contractor's project needs? Well, these things happen, and everyone's to blame.

--Goober

	11-11-2002 22:56									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I hate the Patchs...

	12-11-2002 02:25									#27
	Re: I think I understand... Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Goober For you homeowners out there, have you ever dealt with contractors? What if you were redoing your kitchen and your contractor told you in October that he wants to do the planned work "right" but that will take you into the winter and he'll have to charge you more money to do the work. You'd like to wait that long, but you'd like to have heat, so you need it finished -- so he does a half-assed job, and says it's your fault for rushing him.

This is about the sanest analogy on the situation I've read yet.

	12-11-2002 10:17									#28
	Re: Re: Accepting What? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Wow. You must be living a charmed gaming life, cause it seems for every good replayable game I get, there are several duds that I never touch again.

Not really; I'm just really choosy in what I play; FWIW, the games on your list were stinkers agreed - the reviews & demos were good enough to point that out so I missed those bullets. But when something like the venerable Civ series has Civ3 & PTW happen to it ... well, that's one less GOOD game one can play

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel You've never had an SP game not crash? Sounds like some internal issues.

Think not ... like my original post said, everything else on my rig runs like a charm and what crashes I do have, are found on some bug list and fixed by a patch.

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel About tech support: I have heard the converse, at least early on, that they actually were prompt in replies

It was never that good; I'ld post the reply I got from IG if it wasn't so disgustingly assinine. They list a series of a dozen steps, running from uninstall\reinstall game and - get this - cleaning the CD, with a one liner closing: "Do this and your game will run."

What in God's Green Earth are those jokers smoking!? Clean the CD? Clean the freaking CD? How on earth is cleaning the CD going to help a game NOT crash when it's processing the bloody turn!? Add to that, I've sent *VERY* descriptive descriptions (until recently) about what I was doing, and what I suspect the crash may be due to and I've always attached and included a link to the save games.

IG is to blamed for some assinine Tech Support and Firaxis should be ashamed that they've successfully dragged the name of the CIV series in the mud.

I remember the time when a detailed technical description and communications with a developer got me a patched EXE on a 5 1/4 disk - yes children, this was way back right after the big bang. And by golly, it worked. Nowadays, I certainly don't expect the same level of service, but I DO expect competent service.

And lest anyone lecture about software design and development, pipe it up elsewhere, I've been doing it for 12 years commercially and in IS and in both cases, at the end of the day there is one and only one mantra that matters: "The customer signs your paycheck. Make the customer happy."

	12-11-2002 10:33									#29
	Suffering from ads?

Crashes seem to be pretty hard to pin down, as far as the cause... I've never had Civ3 crash on me once (I don't have PTW). For me, it seems like a stretch to say that it is the game's fault, because I have had no problems... but I won't doubt you. Some games just seem to work or not work on different machines, I don't know why.

I'm not sure in what way Firaxis has "dragged the name of the CIV series in the mud." After all, I thought CTP did that. From what I hear, PTW leaves much to be desired, but that's not so much the Civ series, only an XP. If anything, they've dragged their own name through the mud.

As for me, I'll give PTW a chance... Or rather, I'll give Firaxis a chance to patch it before I buy it. I was dissapointed with the bugs in Civ3, and I don't trust Firaxis enough to buy PTW outright, but Civ3 IMO is a fantastic game and by 1.29 I had no problems.

	12-11-2002 12:23									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It's Infog that does the dragging. They own it afterall. It's theirs to do whatever stupid thing occurs to them.

And BTW, three months from now I doubt that these conversations will carry the same tone and mostly will be forgotten. Just my hunch.