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Where should the science slider be placed?
This poll is closed. |
| 0% (with 1 sci spec): 38 turns; +977 LPT |
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14 |
40.00% |
| 10%: 22 Turns; +874 LPT |
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1 |
2.86% |
| 20%: 11 turns; +772 LPT |
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1 |
2.86% |
| 30%: 8 turns; +660LPT |
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0 |
0% |
| 40%: 6 turns; +555LPT |
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1 |
2.86% |
| 50%: 5 turns; +435LPT |
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3 |
8.57% |
| 60%: 4 turns; +347LPT |
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15 |
42.86% |
| Total: |
35 voters |
100% |
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:23
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A lot of people think that we have won this game but that we just need to wait it out and let time work for us (possibly one of the reasons that a few have left us for the new PTW game). Well, we haven't, not while we still depend on the other Civs for our technology. Paying 1250 Lytons (or more) each for technologies just makes us weaker and OWNED by the tech leaders. We should be Owning them and we will, but not by paying them for their research.
So, yes, we are about 2/3rds through the GA, we have made great strides towards getting to the point of having 60% Science and over 300 income per turn. And we have about 1/3rd left to get some more stuff online.
We have Libraries that will be built shortly. We have Banks that will increase our income, both before and after the GA, that will be built soon (the first one was built in Apolyton just this very turn). And we have Universities that are also to be built very soon.
Or, we can sell all of the Libraries and save that money to buy more techs in the future, because they WILL OWN US AND USE US AS MONEY MACHINES!
Vote for 60%
E_T
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT
VERY interesting debate, truly strategic.
Two things :
- The tweaking at the end of the research is just a way to pay a number of beakers as close as possible of the theoretical number; it is not a gain guaranteed in all cases; with a research completed in 4 turns, the number of cases where the tweaking will work is greatly reduced.
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Yes that is true, but if you can even tweek it down by one notch, in the last turn (taking the current figures as an example), that will give you 88 Lytons extra that you wouldn't have gotten if it wasn't moved. That would be equivalent to 22 LPT extra over the 4 turn period. Another thing, setting the slider to a steady state position assumes several things, mostly that everything else remains steady state over the time frame. You have several factors that Infulance this: Pop Increase; Improvements being built; WF placements (which could effect trade); Infrastructure placements (roads); number of civs who have the tech and corrution effects. Because all of this is dynamic, you should try to have a dynamic slider setting to take all of this into account.
What I normally do, is once a tech is done, look at how long it will takes to get to the next one and with what ever Income I think I'll need over that time frame. It takes a lot of intuitive thinking ahead, but it's worked for me. I've had times with almost Zero Income, while getting my extra cash from mapwhoring (I do it every 10 turns), but I've come up a lot faster from behind that way, but the main thing is to get the beakers in there.
quote:
- One of the strategical goals of a civ is to build the capacity to complete a research in 4 turns AND to be at least at parity with the AI. We are proposed two opposite paths. It would be easier to vote if the two solutions explain how many turns it takes to reach the goal.
A question for ET : are your figures valid after the GA? |
Probibly not, and they will even be different in the next turn, because of some of the above mentioned Dynamics. But we already have 5 Libraries that will be completed before the GA is over, with about the same number that will be done shortly afterwards. We also have 5 Markets going up, with one right after the GA. We're working on a Bank in one city (Apolyton just completed it's Bank) and will have a start on some more before the GA is over with. Well also have atleast 2 Universities under construction when the GA is done.
Just to let everyone know, the figures are taken from the slider positions themselves, so they are accurate, as of the time of the save, the actual Income might vary slightly, as City WF placements are adjusted.
E_T
Last edited by E_T on 11-11-2002 at 14:20
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:23
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Currently, getting the techs from England (results vary from differnt civs, but only within 60-80 Lytons), Theory would be 1245 & Magnetism 1250 Lytons Cash. It's unknown at this time, what the cost for Nationalism would be (Yes, some of them have it too), But I would guess that it will be the same or more. Remember, 18 Lytons Cash = 1 LPT time payment
considering that we get 1 extra trade per worked tile with some trade available, take our whole pop + number of cities and that's the number that we'll lose after the GA. That trade number is then enhanced by various city Improvements and detracted from the effects from corruption. That kind of number is hard to calculate without spending a lot of time to do, which I don't have at the moment.
One thing to remember, is that even though the AI has 20% discount on things, they still are limited to the same 4 turn minumum limit that we are. We can catch up and pass them, but it will take both research and trades that take full advantage of things that help discount a tech, like WM & Luxuries & Resouces, which have a higher value when coupled with a tech deal. We have two luxes that are coming up with Germany in 4 turns and one Lux that's with Rome in 5 turns. We can try to see what kind of discount that we can get for some of the techs then.
E_T
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Sheik
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0%
Why research Theory of Gravity when you can buy it for less? Unless we are going to research something no one has there is no point wasting the money to research. Shiber is right, we need to invest and not be wasting our money on useless research.
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Aggie
The problem ET is that I see nothing gained by moving the slider up except that we keep money from the AI, but we are more efficient at spending so even with the advantage it has we win. The only other thing is that it will let us do our our research. But unless there is real gain I see no purpose to spend the money towards science.
Aggie |
So, lets say that over the next 20 turns, we buy 8 techs from the AI (3 now - Theory, Mag & Nat and that with our extra money, they can research at 4 turns per tech and gets 5 new techs). Assuming 1300L for each (average), thats 10,400 over the 20 turns that we would have to pay or 520 LPT equivalant. At that point, we HAVE to keep the slider at 0% to pay the AI, because we will have exhausted our Ready cash and will be paying some significant LPT to them.
WE NEED TO WEAN OURSELVES FROM THE AI and now is the time to really start. We can even find some form of blend of some of our own research and buying some to keep up, but we need to make this kind of decision in the next few gameplayes. So we might be behind at first, we'll catch up and surpass.
The compramise that I had proposed for getting theory in 4 turns via research and buying Mag with 2 Luxes from Germany (when renegotiated in 4 tuns, same time) can at least get us into the Industrual age (at a greatly reduced cost) and we can then reexamine our options then and after the GA is over in 6 turns.
E_T
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dejon
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I'm in shock here people! I can't believe this poll is tied and so many people just don't get it.
We MUST have scientific independance from the AI.
If we continue to buy from the AI and do not produce any research ourselves, we hurt ourselves and help them. More money for them means:
- more improvements
- more units
- greater ease of continued research
- ability to buy things from other AI civs
Stop looking at the numbers people - and start thinking about the power we are handing the AI every time we buy tech.
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11-11-2002 11:01
), that it's best to set the slider for the number of turns that you want to research. Then as you get closer to completing it, you CAN move the slider % down (tweeking it), keeping the same TOC but increasing you income. Then you set the TOC for the next tech, based on how fast you want it and how much money you expect to spend over the time period.
), but if it does, so be it.
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