11-11-2002 22:02									#1
	Why guerrila? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

There seems to be a mismatch between guerrila's description and goal and A.D.M and cost.

Guerrila 6.6.1
Infantry 6.10.1

Cost: same.

Tech required: same

Resource: infantry needs rubber, but guerrila does not.

Description of guerrila says this unit is a balanced off/def unit. Yes it is BUT if have rubber then why build guerrila? Don't think guerrila has an upgrade path whereas inf can go to Mechs.

Like new unit, do not like configuration.

Editor preferences considering for more balanced unit and to force more split between infantry and guerrila units:

Cost:
-1 shield, or
-2 shields

ADM:
7.7.1 -- a little stronger and still balanced
8.8.1 -- infantry offense + defense / 2

What would you recommend for new guerrila preferences? Why?


-- PF

	11-11-2002 22:59									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

upgrade the guerrilla, it coulb be very useful for all with just more power.

	11-11-2002 23:28									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I voted "banana" simply because I haven't seen enough to comment on their play balance.

However, as an upgrade for Sword/Med Inf/Longbow, and a resource-free unit, I think Guerillas serve a valuable, if small, niche.

	12-11-2002 00:09									#4
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One thing you can do is to upgrade Med Inf to guerilla, but not Inf. Otherwise I would not make any.

	12-11-2002 00:20									#5
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Hmm, giving it more attack doesn't make much sense. I'd rather see it as a 6/8/1 that treats all terrain as roads. I mean guerillas are about fast attacks, right? With 2 movement you've got a fairly fast attacking unit for either that or pillaging, only good in mass attacks with artillery though. Maybe increase the cost by 10 to account for the new ability to it. If it could do that i'd probably use them in sea invasions. Simply because they could help get to citys quicker, keeping up with the attacking units. It'd also be great for annoyance because of its defense. Still no match for tanks or anything though unless in a strong defensive position.

Last edited by ChaotikVisions on 12-11-2002 at 00:45

	12-11-2002 00:24									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Point of Guerilla:

You'll think about them greatly in time when you don't have Rubber.

They are not supposed to be more powerfull then Infantry.

	12-11-2002 00:40									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I don't know how the guerilla works in PTW, but IMHO, it should work like in Civ2: as a unit that appears when a city is lost. After all, guerillas isn't a defence or offence unit in cities in the real world, but works in the terrain.

	12-11-2002 01:26									#8
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er... I didn't vote yet because I think that the treat all terrain as roads makes lots of sence, but keep the other stats the same. Could you redoo the poll, planetfall?

	12-11-2002 01:52									#9
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone er... I didn't vote yet because I think that the treat all terrain as roads makes lots of sence, but keep the other stats the same. Could you redoo the poll, planetfall?

Be nice if could, but editing polls restricted to moderators.

It sounds like most people think the best preference for guerrila is to change to:

6.6.2 all terrain as roads checked

Reasons mentioned:
1. 7|8 is too powerful for offense
2. 7|8 is too powerful for defense
3. movement needs to be increased as guerrilas are not stronger than infantry, just get away faster
4. remember guerrila is upgrade from med inf and longbow.

As I think about it more guerrila's don't have good defense, just quick hit and run. If they can't run, or slide into population they aren't really guerrilas. Thus makes sense to only increase their movement abilities.

-- PF

MODERATOR-- Please add poll option:

"ADM: 6.6.2, all terrain as roads"

	12-11-2002 02:04									#10
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I think the only point to gorillas is if you don't have rubber. The game is over if you're ever without a rubber. At least with gorillas you have a chance to get some rubbers and maybe survive.

	12-11-2002 02:11									#11
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What I plan to do is make them 9.9.2 ignore movement cost of terrain (NOT all terrain as roads; all terrain as grasslands). 9.9 is because I've boosted the value of all gunpowder+ units in my personal mod; infantry have 9 attack. 2 movement + ignore terrain movement penalties means that guerillas would work wonderfully in jungles and mountains, which mirrors the places we've seen them in real life. In open land though they're no faster than a motorized or mounted unit.

I'm also considering making them free upkeep, but that might make them too good. That will have to be playtested.

	12-11-2002 02:12									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Chuckles At least with gorillas you have a chance to get some rubbers

Unfortunate phrasing.

	12-11-2002 02:17									#13
	MODERATOR Get a bigger avatar today!

Amend poll statement to be:

ADM: 6.6.2, all terrain as grasslands

-- PF

Zurai,

I would think you would want guerrilas to have one more movement than infantry to emulate their stealth ability. I don't think the game recognizes stealth in land units. If it does, then 6.6.1 + stealth would work best.

	12-11-2002 02:19									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by planetfall MODERATOR-- Please add poll option: "ADM: 6.6.2, all terrain as roads"

Done... in the future, don't bother posting it in the thread... the odds of us seeing it aren't to high since we usually only check the democracy forums every once in a while, and respond to complaints.

Just send a PM, Email, or do it as a complaint as you did.
That usually will give you the fastest service

	12-11-2002 02:29									#15
	Re: MODERATOR Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by planetfall Zurai, I would think you would want guerrilas to have one more movement than infantry to emulate their stealth ability. I don't think the game recognizes stealth in land units. If it does, then 6.6.1 + stealth would work best.

Stealth is an option as well, but I like 6.6.2(atg), and stealth as well might unbalance them. I don't have PTW yet, so I have no means of testing it. I want them to be useful, but not TOO useful.

EDIT: Just to be clear, "stealth" = invisible unit, not "stealth" as in the stealth planes' ability.

	12-11-2002 02:52									#16
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Yes, both would be unbalancing.

1st choice would be stealth.
2nd choice would be 1 extra movement and all terrain as grass.

What- no PTW yet? ;-)

If stealth works it would be the same as privateer and stealth aircraft. Question is if Firaxis build that sensing capability into PTW or not. Naturally if you give guerrila stealth, you need to give some units ability to see. In editor "stealth" is actually invisible.

Thus something like this would work:

invisible-- guerrila

see invisible-- inf, mechs, tanks, MA and maybe helicopters.

This might encourage AI to build guerrilas or to upgrade old units into units that could see guerrilas.

This would be an interesting concept to play test. An invisible land unit to match the sea and air invisible units. Huh, interesting. Playable?? unknown. Any play test volunteers?

-- PF

	12-11-2002 03:09									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

I haven't really played too much with guerrilas, but they seem to be just a way to keep swordsmen/med. inf from running around during the modern era.

Cost should probably be less than normal infantry, but not excessively so

	12-11-2002 03:48									#18
	Remove this text

Allow guerrilas move 2 all as roads. This gives them at least some reason for someone to actually build them (i.e. a unit which can pillage and run.) Right now they are just cannon fodder consisting of upgraded swords. BTW, does anyone actually build either longbow, medievel infantry, or guerrilas, for any reason other than ur missing a resource.

	12-11-2002 04:00									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by CiverDan BTW, does anyone actually build either longbow, medievel infantry, or guerrilas, for any reason other than ur missing a resource.

I don't build guerrilas as with Firaxis preferences the cost is the same as infantry and I would have to give up 4 defensive strength.

I do build longbow and med inf.

Longbow-- was a cool offensive unit prior to med inf availability. Cheap, cheap. Upgrade from archer. Usually have 5-10 in a game. Why? Excellent cost/benefit ratio versus Musketmen--Knights--Cavalry.

Cost == 40. Attacks with 4 power.
Musketman cost = 60, defense is 4.
Knight cost = 60, defense is 3!!!
Cavalry cost = 80, defense is 3!!!

It is fun to use longbow that costs 40 take out a cavalry unit that costs AI 2x as much. Besides by using a "weaker unit" it seems like higher probability of elite or GL chances.

Med Inf-- same reason, but if not upgrading from archer and iron is available.

-- PF

	12-11-2002 06:36									#20
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a cool idea that may help balance them in certain situations would be to have them be invisible but only in the jungles, and I would go so far as to make them invisible even in the jungles of enemy territory until you are right beside them.

If you think that is too much, maybe you could say only unroaded jungle tiles. I had initially hoped that they wouldn't have had nationality in the game so that they could have been built and sent out to wreak havoc but anyway...

In the dense jungles, they would be perfect at blending in and working in that harsh terrain. I think this would create an added late game challenge for civs trying to chop themselves out of the jungle but also having to worry about protecting their workers.

This feature could be very handy on warm, wet worlds. I can just see a poor unit wandering right into a pack of 8-10 guerillas on ambush patrol

	12-11-2002 06:37									#21
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6/6/2, all terrain as roads (though all terrain as grassland would be better); or

6/6/1 all terrain as roads:
would keep them to rough terrain and would make them vulnerable in roaded, keeping them as a niche unit.

	12-11-2002 06:50									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

I would just make them upgrade to infantry. I thought the aim of Guerillas was to have an upgrade path from Med Infantry to (eventually) Mech Inf. But instead of sending it through riflemen you would make a unit between them and infantry that was a little weaker than infantry but would allow you (or the AI) to build it if you have no rubber resource.

At most I may up its ADM to 6.8.2 if I think it is underpowered, but I see it more as a last resort unit if a city can't get access to rubber and you want a unit with the defence of riflemen but the offence of cavalry/infantry.

Just as in middle ages I only build longbowmen if I can't build knights, in industrial ages I will only build guerillas if I can't build infantry (then if they upgrade they do so for free!)

	12-11-2002 15:17									#23
	Put an end to popups!

thnx for changing the poll!

I like having them with that extra movement. Now would free upkeep be historically correct? (Yes, I'm one of THOSE civ players... )

	12-11-2002 19:03									#24
	Remove this text

Let them HIDE.... It's the whole point of a guerilla!

[And stuff the gorilla with bananas as a mascot neer your computer]

	12-11-2002 21:19									#25
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yeah, the poll should be revised so they can be made invisible only in the jungle.

When they are in the jungle, the only way you should be able to spot them is by moving right next to them. Instead of giving them 2 movements, I think they should be able to sit in "ambush", then if something accidentally comes next to them, they can attack and disengage. They trade punches with the enemy for a percentage of their status (say 2 for normal, 3 for veteran, and 4 for elite) and then disengage regardless of whether they are winning or losing. Guerilla warfare is not necessarily about killing an enemy. However, I think a large enough force of guerillas stationed in ambush could take out an enemy unit by each making small strikes and then disengaging and getting the choice of still moving after their initial attack so they can disappear back into the jungle.

	12-11-2002 21:29									#26
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Ruby,

Remember we are just talking about editor changes not game reprogramming. Invisible only in jungle is not an editor option. Furthermore, if invisible in jungle why not invisible in mountains and flood plains? These terrains also offer high volume of hiding places. If you read Dune, even deserts can be hiding places for determined guerrillas.

The disengage option is an interesting concept. It may only be available to units with more than one movement. If can make guerilla invisible, no need to make movement 2, unless really want to increase number of guerillas.

The other new interesting edit change was to have inf as upgrade from guerilla. With all these changes may want to decrease guerilla to 5.6.1|2.

--PF

	12-11-2002 21:57									#27
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall Remember we are just talking about editor changes not game reprogramming. Invisible only in jungle is not an editor option. Furthermore, if invisible in jungle why not invisible in mountains and flood plains? These terrains also offer high volume of hiding places. If you read Dune, even deserts can be hiding places for determined guerrillas. --PF

Yeah, I know, I know. Can't reprogram but I can't help but wish. But in regards to invisibility (in this dream concept) and if their was an "ambush" option for this unit to be put on, then any terrain would be fine as long as they were set in that mode.

But I think for sure guerillas can be set to have no nationality in the editor. I think you should be able to produce them and use them like privateers.

	12-11-2002 22:10									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ruby,

Well try at game with at least hidden nationality and let us know of your experiences:

1-- where the guerilla units effective for you,

2-- how did the AI use guerilla units against you.

One game I made both subs hidden nationality. Wow, instead of battleships I had 40-50 AI subs attacking everything that floated. Would be interesting to see what mischief the AI could make with hidden nationlity for land units.

== PF

	12-11-2002 22:24									#29
	Remove this text

Just one thing to say:

If you are planning to give them treat all tiles as roads ability DO NOT, and I repeat DO NOT give them 2 movement point.

Otherwise you'll get a very powerfull Cavalry unit (6 tile movements in enemy territory)

Treat all tiles as roads ability with movement of 1 is on the other hand OK.

	12-11-2002 22:36									#30
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Just one thing to say: If you are planning to give them treat all tiles as roads ability DO NOT, and I repeat DO NOT give them 2 movement point. Otherwise you'll get a very powerfull Cavalry unit (6 tile movements in enemy territory) Treat all tiles as roads ability with movement of 1 is on the other hand OK.

Thanks for clarifying this, especially for those who only look at the poll and not the comments. We don't want 2 movement AND all terrain as road.

What most want to do is
A) give guerrila's movement of 2 if not invisible,
B) movement of 1 if invisible flag set, and
C) not give them the ability to move 3 tiles in a turn.

If increasing trait "invisible" or movement, may actually want to decrease offense by 1 so unit is not too powerful.

== PF