14-11-2002 10:12									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I just sent this to Spiffor

quote: Hi Spiffor; As you might know, we on the RollPlay team are considering not playing carthage. We are currently voting on the issue (which is very close). Is there any interest from your team regarding this civ still? would you or another member of your team be willing to enter into some form of negotiations regarding this? As you are the only player on your team that I know, I wanted to approach you first. If you feel it appropriate, please feel free to forward this PM on. Thanks. GodKing

Hopefully if they are interested, this will get them to start negotiations.

	14-11-2002 10:14									#32
	Support Apolyton

I fully agree on keeping other teams ignorant of the details.

	14-11-2002 10:17									#33
	Support Apolyton

However...

I also think we should spin this as something other than a gracious gift to the Builders to everyone but the builders...

I don't want the other 3 teams to think that we're SURE to end up in an alliance with Legoland to start planning against it...

Let the builders know (there's only 6 of them...) in PRIVATE just what we're doing and what we plan in terms of getting along with them... but don't let anyone else know that.

I'd rather the other teams thought we just didn't want to play Carthage because Carthage was a "pure builder team we didn't want to play" and DISCARDED IT without caring whether the builders took it.

Keep that in mind...

	14-11-2002 10:17									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

just some comments on that message you sent Spiff

what im weary of is telling them how much we dont want to play Carthage

if they know we arent going to play it, and we are just trying to jip them on a deal, they wont do us any favors

we should make it sound more like it really is... We are going to play Carthage, unless the Builders want to make a deal

after all, that IS the story, isnt it?

	14-11-2002 10:19									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Well we gotta look at what we want the Builders to think...and what we want the Others to think.

We want the Builders to think we WANT Carthage so they give us something for it

we want the Others to think we have no deal at all with the Builders.

So, what kind of web do we weave?

	14-11-2002 10:46									#36
	Remove this text

btw... while I think we should get something in return from the builders for giving them Carthage (if we do), I'm against attempting to EXTORT FROM THEM...

We should sit down with them and tell them different idea of things we'd like in return and let them see if they can come up with an offer that's good enough for us rather than the other way around...

In other words, tell them we're thinking about "Selling them Carthage" and tell them some initial ideas we have on price. Then let THEM throw back something of a proposal on what they can accept.

Be nice about it, but haggle over it. Don't play this as extortion...

	14-11-2002 10:47									#37
	Put an end to popups!

Here's an idea... have a representative from our side a representative from their side sit down in an IRC chat and haggle out a mutually acceptable price.

	14-11-2002 14:25									#38
	Suffering from ads?

Maybe GodKing proposal is a bit too much. But we cannot expect them to accept whatever proposal we make to them as is. They will probably want to negotiate it. So asking a bit too much is ok to me

	14-11-2002 17:56									#39
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ninot Ninot is a spannish name, dont'chya know?

I thought it was French. How do you pronounce it?

	15-11-2002 01:56									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If we decide to change civ, it's obvious that we should announce it publicly as late as possible... Everyone thinks we'll be Carthage so they're probably building strategies with this fact in mind, and they'll have to start their plans all over again when they'll learn that we've changed our mind

	15-11-2002 03:27									#41
	Suffering from ads?

Yeah, we can have a NDA with Legoland as a part of the deal to give them Carthage...

	15-11-2002 03:55									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

for the record, I think it is a bad idea to sell Carthage to the builders. A jesture on our part is the only way I think we will get anything out of them later on... in terms of building a better relationship or helping each other out. I don't think that giving them an equal deal now will help us when the game starts because they won't feel that they owe us anything.

	15-11-2002 05:21									#43
	Got spare money?

All 17 of our members have voted on this critical issue. Frankly, I wish the vote were not so close.

My decision was to give Carthage away if the # of vote in both of the "give away" categories was greater than the "keep Carthage" votes. That decision will not change, HOWEVER

I am going to go to the builders and tell them that WE ARE TIED about if we should give them Carthage or not, and ask if they can help us break the tie. Then try to arrange for a negotiation with them about this important issue.

I'm sure no one will object to this decision.

I will report back to you with my results.

--Togas

	15-11-2002 06:06									#44
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I beg to differ

6 want to keep Carthage

8 want to give it away, but only 6 are sure they want to be Spain.

Overall, the team does want to make a deal

	15-11-2002 10:04									#45
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yes, we do have 8 vote to give it away as compared to 6 votes to keep, but my story to the builders will be that we're tied and I'd like their "help" resolving this situation so that my team can comfortably give up Carthage.

Hopefully I can get them to be the first to suggest that they make some sort of "trade" and then we can begin to discuss the terms of a trade that might make my team happy with the choice to part with Carthage.

As of now, I have not heard back from Jack. I still await his response.

If any of you know other Builder types, you might want to leak out what our current "dilema" is.

--Togas

	15-11-2002 19:25									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I will let Spiffor know about it later on either today or tonight.......

	15-11-2002 22:37									#47
	Increase the size of your Attachments

*mumbling behind his beard* Hullo, what's up? I say Spain...

	15-11-2002 23:31									#48
	Inflate your Upload Space

I passed this on to spiffor earlier today.

quote: When we realized we would have to fight for carthage, we started some discussions regarding whether or not we really wanted the team. Eventually, as you know, we ended up winning them. However, due to the discussions, a vote ensued, and we are currently in a tie. There are as many people who want them as who do not. However, there are several people who are casting "abstain" votes. These people can be swayed one way or the other. That is why I sent you the PM, to see if your team was interested in them still.

Hope this is along the lines of what you were looking for.

	16-11-2002 01:19									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

GK, you rock

	16-11-2002 05:26									#50
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The probelm of a tie is effectively resolved this way:

There are two options to give away Carthage. If you lump them into one lump, they equal 8 over 6, yes, we want to give away Carthage. Out of those two options, there are 6 votes to play Spam after that and 2 votes not to. This means play Spam. Just view it as two seperate polls, people ...

In the case that this is wrong somehow, my bad, but could this line of logic work?

The poll sez to give Carth to Legoland. Then we can have a second poll on civ choise (listing all 24 civs if that's possible or just "Spain" "Carthage" and "Other".)

The majority has spoken, and they say they don't want Carthage.

Maybe Togas shouldve noted this kind of logic is what we will go by, it would clear up a lot of problems.

Then again, he couldnt have envisioned such a tie, so he didn't and it woudl be wrong for us to turn a poll discussing Carthage giveaway AND the civ we pick into two mutant half-polls, one discussing carthage and one discussing new civ.

ARGH!

	16-11-2002 13:09									#51
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Just so that everything is perfectly clear, we do not have an actual tie ... as more people voted to give Carthage away. Therefore, my intention is to give Carthage away.

However ... our STORY is that we have a tie in the polls, and I think we can say this is true and not be lieing because the top two choices got the same amount of votes.

Therefore, I have begun discussions with Jack. I received his PM this evening. He has informed me that he feels our requests are "quite reasonable" and he is taking them back to his team.

I wrote a very cordial letter and explained my dilema to him and then said the following:

quote: Some of my tribesmen have felt that we could "trade" favors for Carthage. I'll list of few of their more reasonable requests here: Agree to give us two of the ancient era techs, or one of the middle ages techs after our civs meet up. Declare war on someone we're at war with ... sort of an early game mutual defense agreement. Agree to give us "most favored nation" trade status where you guys would sell us techs and maps at a cheaper price than other nations. Promise not to declare war on us at any point in the game prior to 1000 AD.

You'll notice I left a few things out. It's important to me to maintain good relations with the builders, so I wanted to be sure that none of our terms seemed insulting or grossly unfair.

Jack's response was good and I will keep the team posted on what his team has to say about this.

--Togas

	16-11-2002 13:16									#52
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What do we do if we have a leak?

	16-11-2002 14:26									#53
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus What do we do if we have a leak?

Are you suggesting that we do?

....

	16-11-2002 14:44									#54
	Increase Your PM Length

No, I'm not.

And I agree,

	16-11-2002 22:15									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So we give Carthage to Legoland and have a civchoice poll on either "Spam" or "other", "carthage" not an option because the majority of us voted to give it away.
I think that's a good line of logic, but milk Legoland as much as you can.

It's said that cows give more milk when listening to The King, maybe we could arrange to send an Elvis cd to Spiffor's house...

	16-11-2002 23:28									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This is Jack's response:

quote: Here are some things that we can give in exchange for Carthage: most favored nation status No war clause Give you techs at cheep price, but we dont like just giving them away for free. Anther idea I have that I still need to talk with my team with is that we can have a resreach pact, we help each other in resreach. Say you guys go for Gunpowered and we go for Education, something along those lines. As for the alliance thing, our team does not want to commited to any alliance with out know what the situation is, but I think we can ally with each other at a latter stage in the game. Also we did a repoll and which civ our team wants, and allmost everyone wants Carthage.

I am going to ask for all three, including the research pact idea. Any objections or suggestions?

I will wait to send my PM back to Jack for about six hours.

--Togas

	17-11-2002 00:14									#57
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well, what they're offering us here are the terms of a classical alliance (except MPP), which I guess we would have concluded anyway as we're the 2 most 'builders-like' teams. So this is not a big payment for Carthage, but as we have decided to let it go anyway, I agree with Togas to ask for all three things.

	17-11-2002 01:47									#58
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm liking how this is turning out. I only hope our starting positions put us in as good of a geographic proximity to each other as this deal does politically.

	17-11-2002 01:50									#59
	Suffering from ads?

Well, then, my fellow Spanairds, I hope the decision pleases you all, though I had hoped for better. I think Togas terms are best, after all, though I wonder if the Builders are trustworthy enough.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari

	17-11-2002 02:09									#60
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I think the Jack's proposal is good.

However, it can be difficult to go with it if the bulders were geographically placed far from us.

What if the other teams don't facilitate us the communication with them ? It is very probable that those teams think we'll in fact do such agreements with the builders....

No matter, the best way to help the builders to resist against the warmongers teams is to give them Carthage.