13-11-2002 06:24									#1
	Discussion on our Civ Choice Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

People.

We must decide if we will keep Carthage or give it to Legoland and take another Civ. Our concensus backup Civ is Spain.

This thread is for discussion and a vote on that topic.

I'd like all members who previously posted in our old Roleplay thread to post his decision here about if we should graciously hand over Carthage or not.

(also note, you are now allowed to change your mind, if you so choose. I will only count your votes in this thread.)

This vote will be open for 48 hours.

--Togas

	13-11-2002 06:26									#2
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Also note: I am going to add up the votes for both of the "give Carthage away" categories to decide what we should do. Keep Carthage must outnumber (or tie) both of the "give Carthage away" categories.

--Togas

	13-11-2002 18:00									#3
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Is this poll or Arnelos's poll the one to vote in?

	13-11-2002 21:14									#4
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As this forum is confidential, and I can say absolutely anything devious, muwahahahahaa


I say we give away Carthage, but make it sound like we are doing them a favour, and ask something back in return..like a long term aliance against Trip or TTA or Glory.... somethin like that.

muwahahahaha

	13-11-2002 21:49									#5
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I agree with Ninot. If we choose to give away Carthage, I will be very gracious and generous about it. Perhaps we can even front a bit of a pubic "sympathy" towards the builders and tell them that we all believe that Carthage is a pure builder civ and we felt "it wasn't right" for us to play the civ ... that they'd play it much better than us. Etc. etc.

Frankly, I want us to build up postive relations with ALL of the other civs prior to starting this game. We want THEM to fight each other and leave us alone until we're ready to stab one of them in the back.

--Togas

	13-11-2002 21:56									#6
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I voted in the whatever catagory........ because whatever.

Yes, if we give them away, make it a very grandios gesture and see what we can get out of them.

	13-11-2002 22:11									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I agree with Ninot. If we choose to give away Carthage, I will be very gracious and generous about it. Perhaps we can even front a bit of a pubic "sympathy" towards the builders and tell them that we all believe that Carthage is a pure builder civ and we felt "it wasn't right" for us to play the civ ... that they'd play it much better than us. Etc. etc. Frankly, I want us to build up postive relations with ALL of the other civs prior to starting this game. We want THEM to fight each other and leave us alone until we're ready to stab one of them in the back. --Togas

Togas is 100% right.
I cant add anything to what the Great One has said.

	13-11-2002 22:26									#8
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As I said on other thread, I prefer Spain. In fact I don't care too much as long as the civ is religious.

But making some friends from the begining would help. If the Warmongers groups honours their name we (or any civ near them) should expect an early attack, and allies would help, even if their only contribution is not to open a new war front.

	14-11-2002 02:03									#9
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This is all very well and good, though I fear we shall loose Carthage and I shall have to change my name to...Hernan de History Guy Calamari...

My great problem is throwing away a really wonderful unit like a Numidian Mercenary, in essence an Ancient Musketman with no resources, to get a very expensive explorer...

	14-11-2002 02:20									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I agree with Ninot. If we choose to give away Carthage, I will be very gracious and generous about it. Perhaps we can even front a bit of a pubic "sympathy" towards the builders and tell them that we all believe that Carthage is a pure builder civ and we felt "it wasn't right" for us to play the civ ... that they'd play it much better than us. Etc. etc. Frankly, I want us to build up postive relations with ALL of the other civs prior to starting this game. We want THEM to fight each other and leave us alone until we're ready to stab one of them in the back. --Togas

Spoken like a true diplomat .

I won't vote (or will abstain), since I don't have PTW and don't know the advantages of any given civilization, but I would be strongly in support of winning the favor of another civilization (especially one that may take an early science lead, such as the builders).

-- adaMada

	14-11-2002 02:27									#11
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I don't think that a gift to the builders should be considered as a valuable strategic argument. Maybe they'll start on the opposite side of the map, so we can't ally with them pretty soon anyway. The civ choice sounds like something far more crucial to me than pre-game psychology or diplomacy.
War, peace or alliances will be determined by the current status of the various civs, not by little favors made outside the game. If we've decided that Carthage is the best civ for our gameplay style, let's keep it or we might regret it later. Other teams won't be fooled so easily.

	14-11-2002 03:00									#12
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My friend Senator Crousto is absolutely right. The notion that we might well end up beside the Builders, so let's get a good relationship with them now, etc., is flawed. Not only could they well be on the other side of the world, on another continent, etc., but they could also have potentially sort memories.

	14-11-2002 03:04									#13
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Proposed Contract with the Lego Team for sale of the Carthage Civilization:

We will relinquish our control of Carthage for the following:

1. We get our choice of any as yet unclaimed Civ, and you will back us in that choice.
2. Within the game, you will do any one of the following, our choice:
a. Pay us 2,500 gp (1 gpt = 18 gp), to be paid in full by the discovery of invention by any civ.
b. Give us one city of our choice (any except the capitol) with a population of 6 or less (valid up to the year 0).
c. Declare war on a third party of our choice, where we must currently be at war with them (open up a second front). War must last 20 turns, or until we declare peace, whichever is lesser.
d. Give us two techs, of our choice, from the ancient age; or one tech of our choice from the medieval age.
3. During the Game, you will:
a. Treat us as “most favorable” trade partner, including things such as adding world map to various trade deals at no additional cost.
b. Work with us as a partner until the year 1000. In other words, no sneak attacks until after the year 1000.
c. Give us what will amount to a right of passage for explorers/scouts/(warriors), workers, settlers and appropriate guards for those units (not for military units other than those guards) to the year 0.
Grant us a right of passage for any military campaigns (if you wish you may designate a corridor that we must stay in, within reason) that we may currently be involved in, until the year 1000.

	14-11-2002 03:12									#14
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I find Godking's contract within reason as is, and though I hope that we do keep Carthage, I should support this proposal as is if we vote to give it up (sad as that will be). I would not, however, under any circumstances, take anything away from it as it is now in it's current shape. Anything less would be a very cheap thing indeed, for what we are doing for them.

This means one of two things if we do decide on Spain (Heaven forbid).

1) The Builders, as Carthage, will grant us these huge benefits to our civilization, as our best allies.
2) The Builders, seeing this, would scoff our offers, and say "Poop to you. Keep Carthage, for all we care. See if we cry...now, I must go off to the corner with my hanky and blubber..." and simply forget the whole deal.

Of course, if the Builders happen to wind up next door to the warmongers, they well be wiped off the planet before we even get any of these benefits, and we will have given up a great civilization for nothing!

Though I don't like giving up Carthage, I do like Godking's proposal if we have to do so. I strongly suggest that under no circumstances do we change anything, and that we leave it AS IS.

	14-11-2002 03:16									#15
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My only quibble is the mention of the year 1000. What if Carthage winds up on an entirely different continent, and we only find the thing in, say, 1350. In that case, the whole thing is spoiled. I suggest moving it up to the year 1700, or simply not having a year at all.

Though I DO NOT like the idea of giving up Carthage, I do support Godking's proposal if the people vote to give it up. However, 1000 is simply not a good year to have it all set to end on.

	14-11-2002 03:59									#16
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I love GK's proposal but I can't imagine the builders accepting it.

We may be able to get them to accept a watered down version of it.

What we need is a "friend" of the Builders to make contact with them, shmooze a bit, and float the idea that we may have a "compromise" about giving up Carthage. Say that most of our team is not in favor of giving it up without some sort of "agreement" between us.

Who amongst us would like to begin the contact? If no one voluteers I'll do my bit for diplomacy.


Just as a thought ... I think we have the finest Civ Diplomats amongst our membership. This sort of thing is a huge advantage. We should begin our Machiavellian Discussions about how to take over the world immediately.

--Togas

	14-11-2002 04:17									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I love GK's proposal but I can't imagine the builders accepting it. We may be able to get them to accept a watered down version of it. What we need is a "friend" of the Builders to make contact with them, shmooze a bit, and float the idea that we may have a "compromise" about giving up Carthage. Say that most of our team is not in favor of giving it up without some sort of "agreement" between us. Who amongst us would like to begin the contact? If no one voluteers I'll do my bit for diplomacy. Just as a thought ... I think we have the finest Civ Diplomats amongst our membership. This sort of thing is a huge advantage. We should begin our Machiavellian Discussions about how to take over the world immediately. --Togas

I agree in full :b. GodKing's proposal would be great -- but the Builders will never accept it (especially the part about going to war -- they are builders ). Having said that, I would offer myself for any intra-civ negotiations. Looking over the builders team list as per the CivGroups function, I'm afraid I know very few of their players (and none well), but I'd be happy to give it a go anyway. In leu of that, I know some players much better in the other civs, and would volunteer to present deals to whomever, as our great leader Togas sees fit.

-- adaMada

EDIT: I also agree in full with Togas' comment on having the best diplomats of any nation, and believe we would be fools to not take full advantage of diplomacy. With the people we have, we could easily become supreme.

	14-11-2002 04:19									#18
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I like GodKing's idea too, but is this kind of deal 'legal'? Can we setup trades outside the standard diplomatic rules of Civ3, moreover before our civs have met each other in the game?

	14-11-2002 05:11									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I love GK's proposal but I can't imagine the builders accepting it. We may be able to get them to accept a watered down version of it. Just as a thought ... I think we have the finest Civ Diplomats amongst our membership. This sort of thing is a huge advantage. We should begin our Machiavellian Discussions about how to take over the world immediately. --Togas

Once again, The Great one is right.

Contrary to anyone's beliefs, us roleplayers are NOT God's gift to the game. We can't make outrageous demands, and expect results. And with a peaceful civ like the builders, we should be able to afford a lenient deal, instead of one that makes them impotent.

And as for the scenario of what if they are our neighbor, or far away? Well that can be answered simply by not making a deal that would cause that to matter much.

	14-11-2002 06:42									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot As this forum is confidential, and I can say absolutely anything devious, muwahahahahaa I say we give away Carthage, but make it sound like we are doing them a favour, and ask something back in return..like a long term aliance against Trip or TTA or Glory.... somethin like that. muwahahahaha

No, I'm really a spy for Legoland. I won't tolerate deviousness, especially when it pertains to fellow peacenics

quote: Contrary to anyone's beliefs, us roleplayers are NOT God's gift to the game. We can't make outrageous demands, and expect results. And with a peaceful civ like the builders, we should be able to afford a lenient deal, instead of one that makes them impotent.

I voted for giving carthage away because I'm misguided and ignorant. Any questions?

(besides that, I have a better name for my character as spain )


Btw, I am operating under the assumption that I won't have to roleplay, i.e. express myself as "Thud no like, Thud kill", until we actually start the game.

	14-11-2002 07:12									#21
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Here's another pitch for the Celts....

	14-11-2002 07:43									#22
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While I agree that we should make a friend of the builders (it's VERY logical to do - we're THE ONLY TEAM that hasn't already threatened them with annihilation), I don't believe that selling them Carthage is necessary for it.

There's enough MUTUAL INTEREST ALREADY to form a partnership between the builders and ourselves that giving them the civ is pure gravy...

	14-11-2002 07:57									#23
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Togas: Could you please note that this poll is a "Majority is 50% + 1 vote" poll? Or whatever majority it is?

What if everything except "Give Carthage to Legoland and play Spain" got 5 votes and Give to Lego and use Spam got 6? (I know due to the membership of the team that is impossible...exept... [I think that's the right emoticon, just kidding ] )

	14-11-2002 08:00									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos While I agree that we should make a friend of the builders (it's VERY logical to do - we're THE ONLY TEAM that hasn't already threatened them with annihilation), I don't believe that selling them Carthage is necessary for it.

Well, we have to think how the warmongerers are thinking


will they go with the obvious prey, and destroy the builders? Will they try for a suprise, and try to invade each other or us?

We have to anticipate all of those possibilties

but in anycase, we SHOULD befriend the builders, no matter waht. As long as they dont threaten war, they are good friends in my eyes. We should make that painfully obvious to them. ok, maybe without pain tho.

I dont think Carthage is the best choice for us. I'll say that flat out. Do i think we can make the builders our best friend SOLELY because we will look generous giving it away? Im slightly doubtful, but the odds are better than if we dont.

Im all for "giving" away Carthage.

	14-11-2002 08:11									#25
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I don't really care either way.

	14-11-2002 08:21									#26
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I just thought of my ultimate decision...

we must pick Spain

cuz then i can make Ninot my family/tribe name

Ninot is a spannish name, dont'chya know?

	14-11-2002 08:53									#27
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I still prefer Carthage and object to them being "Just a builder civ" - this is simply inane.

However, I'd be happy with Spain.

	14-11-2002 09:14									#28
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On the contract, I set the dates for a reason... we are gambling also. If we miss all the dates, tough for us. That is the selling point of this. A gamble.

There are two things that are not time dependant... favorable trade status, and item 2c, open up a third front.

There are no provisions to enforce this. This is also part of the gamble we take. the only thing we can do is advertise the breaking of the contact. Not that that would do much for them as apparently most of the other teams are going to take them on at one point or another anyways.

Also, and I am surprised nobody has yet pointed this out, there are no provisions from us starting any sort of sneak attack from them at any point. Say we ask for a right of passage, march 20 swordsmen next to their capitol city, then sack it in the year 250 BC. No provisions (except standard Civ3) against that. And that will not matter if the AI civs don't exist any more.

The contract is up for negotiations. I don't know anybody over there that well. But if whoever does make contact (I can if our Boss Dude tells me to) can negotiate saying things such as "look at this risk we are taking... we may not even make contact with your civ until after all the deadlines have expired" and "look, if there are any specific items you cannot accept, let us know and we will see if we can change them..."

I would like to make this "hard but fair (to us)" as I see the voting is moving toward giving them carthage if they will give us something.

	14-11-2002 09:19									#29
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As far as how much we advertise concerning the contract, i think we should keep MOST of it confidential

All we should allow out is that we are graciously allowing them to be Carthage, and MAYBE one thing they are giving back in return

if we release full details, other civs will have an idea of how we can take advantages. we must allow them ignorance.

	14-11-2002 09:35									#30
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I agree Ninot, all of the details we make should be kept between the two civs, preferably with just their leadership.