13-11-2002 14:18									#1
	Official Quick Poll: Democracy after GA or stay Republic. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

THIS POLL HAS BEEN DECLARED INVALAD AND IS NOW UNOFFICIAL. SEE THE NEW POLL FOR YOUR VOTE!


Because there has been discussions about this issue, no official poll has been made yet. If the public wants to change Government, it would most likely be best to do it right at the end of the Trunchat, I'm posting this poll.

The decision to end the turnchat at that time period that we are, is to reevaluate the builds, WF and other things after the end of the GA. But if we are planning to change to Democracy, that will also require some reevaluation and a poll at the time. So, this poll is here.

turnchat timeline:
circa 1000AB - End of GA
if we go into Revolt to change the government at that time, the need to do any WF/build reevaluations will be moot and the next turn we'll be in Demo and we could stop there. Only PW, SMC moves, last minute rushes and a quick check for starvation would have to be done. Their might be some FAM things, but they shouldn't take long.

If agreed, Start Revolt. Then circa 1010AB - Enter Democracy and end of chat.

So this poll will end at the time, during the turnchat that we get to the end of the GA. That will be approximately 0100GMT on Saturday.

The choices are:
1) Democracy right after the GA
2) Democracy at a later time, to be discussed
3) Stay in Republic
4) Abstain

For the purposes of this poll, the turnchat will be halted as planned if there isn't a majority to switch governments

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 14-11-2002 at 20:51

	13-11-2002 15:16									#2
	Re: Official Quick Poll: Democracy after GA or stay Republic. Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by E_T For the purposes of this poll, the turnchat will be halted as planned if there isn't a majority to switch governments

Uhhh. Have you talked to the President or VP about this?

Just asking.

/Edit. When does this poll expire?

	13-11-2002 20:35									#3
	Re: Re: Official Quick Poll: Democracy after GA or stay Republic. Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Uhhh. Have you talked to the President or VP about this? Just asking. /Edit. When does this poll expire?

I had completely forgotten about this comming up so soon and quickly posted this to get it started. Because of timing on the of the next turnchat, the poll would last for a little under 3 days time. It would approxamately end on about 0100 GMT on saturday. As the turnchat will be starting at about 2200GMT on friday and we should get to the point in the turnchat for when the GA has ended in the Game. For the 6th turn (expected end of the GA) that will be about 5 hours (or even later) into the turnchat. I set this up to end when we had gotten to that point in time (i.e. we would consult the poll figures and post that the poll is now closed).

No, I have not talked to MrWIA or Arnelos about it. I didn't even remember it myself until I was in bed at 4AM EST and rushed to the computer to post ahd get the poll started, so as to allow sufficient time for the poll to run on the issue.

If I've overstepped my bounds at this point, I apologize and the poll will be made invalid.

E_T

	13-11-2002 22:02									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The trade advantages for Democracy are real but over estimated by most players. I anticipate that war will begin too soon after the GA to recoup the 1 turn of zero trade due to govt change. And I anticipate that the war will last too long to fight under Democracy. So I voted to stay in Republic.

	13-11-2002 22:48									#5
	Tired of ads?

If we are researching our selves, with as many cities that we have, I anticipate a minimum of 1/2 turn of reserach per tech shaved off from the switch to Democracy post GA and a maximum of 1 1/4 turns shaved off.

This is from reduced corrpution alone.

In addition, most civ improvements & Calvary / Infentry should get 1 turn shaved off under Democracy in most cities from reduced waste. (Pre factory / pre Hospital)

What's priceless though is that rail roading and polution cleanup will be faster under Democracy.

We're religious. We can afford to take a turn off in the middle of the war to change govs if needed.

	13-11-2002 23:03									#6
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Yes, the principal advantage to Democracy is faster workers. We can utilize this now while chopping jungle, but even more so when railroading. It just so happens that Anarchy also slows down workers to a crawl. It only takes a couple of Demo turns to recoup the lost worker efforts of Anarchy, but the trade bit takes a few more. All in all, the earliest possible war date (that we initiate) is about break even. Those who want Demo Now! should rally for Trade embargo against Germany with as many takers as possible as soon as those luxury deals expire in 4 turns.

Germany has only 1 native luxury (wine) so is extremely vulnerable to a broad embargo. If we can get enough takers, I think Otto will be forced into war. don't you just love the war weariness kicker of Demo when you are shamelessly attacked?

	13-11-2002 23:15									#7
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Roadcage, every time I've been attacked first by the AI under a Democracy, my happiness has initally gone UP!
And the war has always ended before Peace Protests break out. (If the AI attacks first, it seems to take a lot longer for war werrious to be a factor than if your the one who attacks.)

As to Trade Boycot with Germany.

Yes, let's do it starting in 4 turns.

Athough, in my experence, I've only seen two prices offered for Trade Boycott that I've proposed:

1. Free (when the AI currently isn't in a trade deal with that AI)

2. "Can't be Done" (when the AI currently IS in a trade deal with that AI)

	13-11-2002 23:43									#8
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True. When another civ attacks you under Democracy or Republic, your war weariness actually drops. So basically, if you have zero war weariness (i.e. no wars in the last 20 turns) and you're attacked, you have 5 turns of grace before war weariness rises above zero and then gradually begins to affect you.

	13-11-2002 23:53									#9
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I guess I didn't state it very well. The kicker is favorable!

	14-11-2002 00:17									#10
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If we can use our explorers to cut off Berlin from the rest of Germany, we can deny Germany all of their luxuries and watch their empire fall in pieces while we take it bite by bite.

	14-11-2002 00:19									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes Shiber, please see my German objectives thread.

	14-11-2002 00:58									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Damn. How could I have overlooked it?

	14-11-2002 03:58									#13
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I'm leaning towards staying Republic, because I think several wars are on the horizon. Maybe we should wait until our Cavalry are useless, and then make the change.

Since the majority seem to want Democracy AND wars AND we probably won't get Sufferage you'll have to be aware of war weariness, and try to provoke the other side. Does anyone know if our reputation is damaged by trade deals broken because the other side declared war on us?

Last edited by realpolitic on 14-11-2002 at 04:32

	14-11-2002 05:09									#14
	Got spare money?

Did I forget to post a poll on this issue? I think I posted one, but I might just be kidding with myself

Thank you to E_T for posting it, as I must have forgotten...

	14-11-2002 05:22									#15
	Tired of ads?

Ok, I posted the pre-poll, but posting the actual poll skipped my mind while I was posting the other official polls and preparing my campaign.

My fault.

Here's the pre-poll thread for those interested:

http://www.apolyton.com/forums/show...?threadid=67095

	14-11-2002 08:19									#16
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DEMOCRACY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!

The War Weariness might suck, but if we can quickly pick the enemies we have in mind off (which will be tremendously helped by Democracy's waste/corruption cutting,) we can avoid most of it. Also, I'm sure our more crafty minds could figure out a way to probably goad Apolyton into declaring war on us,

	14-11-2002 09:26									#17
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Democracy will bring us so much money and so much research compared to any other form of government, that it would be irresponsible not to switch as soon as the GA is over.

	14-11-2002 16:08									#18
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Democracy ASAP, i say!

indeed- we have almost every reason why switching to Democracy- all that was said and don't forget- we'll have to do our wars in a quick manner, to avoid weariness- and who doesn't love quick wars in which we crush our opponents and the diplomatic challenge of isolating our prey and make it desperately attack first?

	14-11-2002 16:38									#19
	Re: Re: Re: Official Quick Poll: Democracy after GA or stay Republic. Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by E_T No, I have not talked to MrWIA or Arnelos about it. I didn't even remember it myself until I was in bed at 4AM EST and rushed to the computer to post ahd get the poll started, so as to allow sufficient time for the poll to run on the issue. If I've overstepped my bounds at this point, I apologize and the poll will be made invalid. E_T

E_T, we can end the chat as originally planned, right when the GA ends and before we do anything else. This will allow a poll to be conducted before the NEXT turnchat (President Aggie's first chat or my last) which will determine whether to switch to Democracy before then.

As for the poll, it is invalid unless it runs the full 72 hours (which you have said it does not). Since it seems to indeed be invalid, I'll go ahead and post a full 3-day poll on the immediate democracy switch. That poll will run today (Thursday), tomorrow (Friday), and Saturday and thus be done before the turnchat likely held next Sunday (under me) or Monday or beyond (under Aggie).

The switch to democracy has not been endangered. This should work out just fine.

	14-11-2002 17:46									#20
	Got spare money?

This poll now becomes an Unofficial poll.

E_T

	14-11-2002 17:53									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I can not make a turnchat on sunday either. If you want, we could just pass around the save and just do the Democracy change during the one turn and hand the game over to the new admin with them deing in Demo?

Besides, Sunday Chat will also be out for me (the same thing on Saturday, a SF CON which I purchased tickets for quite a sum, months back).

E_T

	14-11-2002 17:54									#22
	Tired of ads?

[edit] double post quoting myself???????

deleted

E_T

	14-11-2002 18:00									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by E_T I can not make a turnchat on sunday either. If you want, we could just pass around the save and just do the Democracy change during the one turn and hand the game over to the new admin with them deing in Demo?

This is one of the two possibilities I had in mind, yes Obviously, I get to be the one to receive the "So you say you wanna revolution?" message and reply with "Don't you know it's gonna be alright" After that, I can pass around the save to the ministers so we can do that turn, sure. That COULD work.

quote: Besides, Sunday Chat will also be out for me (the same thing on Saturday, a SF CON which I purchased tickets for quite a sum, months back).

That's what deputy ministers are for!

	14-11-2002 19:16									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos This is one of the two possibilities I had in mind, yes Obviously, I get to be the one to receive the "So you say you wanna revolution?" message and reply with "Don't you know it's gonna be alright" After that, I can pass around the save to the ministers so we can do that turn, sure. That COULD work.

It would probibly be best to have SMC moves and upgrades, PW moves and infrasructure, Posible FAM trades, CP last minute rushes, THEN go to revolution, then check for starvarion, either by VP or CP. Then go to next turn and post the save for the next Admin.

E_T

	14-11-2002 19:18									#25
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yeah, that works.

	14-11-2002 20:52									#26
	Support Apolyton

I've made a declaration edit to the top post for this poll

E_T