14-11-2002 09:47									#1
	Culture, should we invest in it Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Since many of us have not played any MP games, this can be tricky.

Therefore is it worthwhile to invest in culture in MP games?

Give the pro's en con's as you see them

	14-11-2002 13:49									#2
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I think culture will be important. Regardless of whether we're playing against human or AI, there is still the same potential to initiate culture flips as their is in single player games.

I don't believe our opponents are illogical enough to trust culture flips to fate and not try their hand in preventing them, as I would hope they'd feel the same way about us.

Besides, culture improvements help the cities as a whole anyways. Without temples, marketplaces, libraries etc, our cities will be backwards and barely a step above Ruins.

So I see it as always important. It paces the game to our liking, depending on how much culture we can afford to build up.

	14-11-2002 13:57									#3
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A place for everything, and everything in its place

There will be periods of peaceful build up of the cities. There will be times of war and preparation for war.

Should we have a neighbour, like the Glory of War, and they are sitting in Monarchy, and the Mil advisor tells us we are at a disadvantage...

We'd best build Knights, and not Cathedrals.

	15-11-2002 02:46									#4
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Personally, I'm a big fan of early temples, both for happiness and for border expansion. Border expansion has two primary effects: it allows you access to the full city radius and it helps you defend by forcing an enemy to slog his way through your culture before attacking your city.

However, it really depends on the lay of the land. If we start next to a couple of AI civs, we can afford to build our temples and prepare to beat on them normally. However, if we pop up next to a strong human team, we may be forced to forego culture initially in order to defend ourselves (best defense being a good offense, of course).

-Arrian

	15-11-2002 04:51									#5
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I tooo am a fan of early Temples, but I can tell you that the strongest start I ever had on marginal terrain was the second 1337 game, as Rome.

Arrian, you'll kill me for this , but 3-tile spacing, 2 luxuries, Barracks, Archers for an early rush, and Warriors up the yin-yang for upgrade were unbelievable. I believe this will work even better if we are industrious.

(oops, the Dark Side enters the discussion )

Course it depends on what we get.

	15-11-2002 08:13									#6
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What's this for a provocative thread title? How on earth could we go without culture? I didn't join this team to start having CFs

If we are religious, we should make sure we build the first temple of the game... after that we can watch the culture graph, and see if someone else is overly eager to build up culture. Also, and this might be something not many people have thought about in the other teams, we should get the Colossus, or the GL, preferably both. The reason is that the Colossus is good enough for 3 temples culture wise.

If other teams are squarely going for culture, we should always stay within half their culture, if no-one is focussing we should aim to have the best culture. This doesn't mean we should build more temples and stuff then everyone else, but we should be smart in when we build what. A 3000BC temple will provide enough culture to be safe for the next 2000 years, add the colossus or another 2 or 3 early (1500 BC) temples and we're safe for the entire ancient era. If this is built well, we have enough resources to build troops, build settlers, capture cities, build marketplaces (still one the most important buildings in the game). Of course all of this depends on the situation and chosen Civ, but I'd say we look at culture as something that is simply needed and thus a priority, but as we're not builders per se it's not the goal of the game.

DeepO

	15-11-2002 08:25									#7
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Dependent on the map, maybe we should try to have at least one BIGGG city relatively early... Temple, some lux, some garrison...

But I still predict some ANCIENT war.

	15-11-2002 08:35									#8
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Ah, we need ancient war... super ancient war if possible. But there is no point in gaining territory to lose it to cultural flips later.

As to a super wonder city: the last few games, this has worked very wel for me, to pick one city and focus it, building towards size 12 early. But yes, this depends on the situation when you do it: either you start your second city after the first settler, or you can catch up later after the first round of conquest, adding slaves or own workers to speed things up. It's a choice of timing, but to have it easy we should need at least one wonder city by the time the Hanging gardens become available. Happiness is, just like culture, one of those priorities we simply need, and one way or another we have to get some wonders to support that.

DeepO

	15-11-2002 09:17									#9
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Honestly, in MP games, I have found that wonders aren't always worth the shields

I had one game where I put everything towards MW's and avoided all wonders but the Great Lighthouse while my opponent built the oracle and something else. He should have been building swordsmen. Needless to say, I crushed him.

If we are on archipelago, I would say the only useful ancient wonder is the Lighthouse. then we could get off the rock and on to battle.

If we are not on archipelago, and there are other civs nearby, I wouldn't even bother with a wonder unless I got a leader.

But that's just me

This game will go probably a lot slower than a 1x1 or similar game, so we probably will have time to build some wonders and generate the culture and happiness.

	15-11-2002 19:35									#10
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I would like to try for the Colossus if we have a viable spot for it. We're leaning heavily toward a civ with an ancient UU, which we WILL use, so the ensuing GA ought to polish of the Col... on a normal map the commerce boost is worth the shield cost, IMO.

-Arrian

	15-11-2002 21:51									#11
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Wonders may not be so crucial (they never are, not even in SP), but I'd rather build a few of them, instead of having to face them. Plus, building is many times better than spending a GL on it: GLs should at first be reserved for armies, palace moves, and stuff like that. If we get into the position of having too many of them, a few wonders would be nice.

One thing we (and prolly everyone else) should go for is the GL, tech trading will be a lot less frequent than in SP, so gaining free techs from it will be awesome. But still, I think we need early wonders simply for the culture they generate... the Oracle also produces 4 culture (8 in 1000 years), which is not something to discard that easily.

DeepO

DeepO

	16-11-2002 00:46									#12
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Unless we invest heavily in culture early on, I can't see why we should invest in it all. Explanation: culture flips are great in SP, but I can't see them happening too often in MP. I think we're going to see a lot of warmongering, and the fact is warmongering beats culture every time. If they've spent their time building Temples and such, we know how to deal with it; if we spend our time building Temples and such, they will know how to deal with it when they start conquering our cities. If we end up picking a Religious civ building Temples early will obviously be a fine decision; if not, I'm not certain it's worth the 60 shields, unless we really need to deal with unhappiness.


Dominae

	16-11-2002 04:02									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Unless we invest heavily in culture early on, I can't see why we should invest in it all. Explanation: culture flips are great in SP, but I can't see them happening too often in MP. I think we're going to see a lot of warmongering, and the fact is warmongering beats culture every time. If they've spent their time building Temples and such, we know how to deal with it; if we spend our time building Temples and such, they will know how to deal with it when they start conquering our cities. If we end up picking a Religious civ building Temples early will obviously be a fine decision; if not, I'm not certain it's worth the 60 shields, unless we really need to deal with unhappiness. Dominae

Agreed

and welcome to the team, Dominae

	16-11-2002 04:06									#14
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Ah, but if we lose culture at a rate that we have less then half of the civ we're conquering, we will get into problems. Culture isn't a goal here, it's just a terrain where we can't afford to lose too much

DeepO

	16-11-2002 04:11									#15
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Ah, but if we lose culture at a rate that we have less then half of the civ we're conquering, we will get into problems. Culture isn't a goal here, it's just a terrain where we can't afford to lose too much DeepO

good point, we will have to build enough to claim territory and resources

I imagine that the AI will be ahead in culture, if they survive the first couple millenia.

Of course, I think it would be hilarious if legoland won via culture. I think that would actually be a posititve thing, other than the fact that we would lose. Regardless, it will be hilarious when the glory of war takes cities of legoland only to have them flip a few turns later or will they just raze everything? Will we have respect for a human that razes? hmmm

	16-11-2002 04:26									#16
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Not a chance: every razed city will certainly mean the other one holding grudges for a long time. If glory wants to, they risk that a few humans will team up on them... We should avoid it. Besides, I never had a reason to raze, and lately I would call myself a (cultural) warmonger instead of a builder.

DeepO

	16-11-2002 04:29									#17
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Well, we do have THE leading authorithy on culture in our midst

But razing should be discussed at some point or another


trivial: Say Deeps, how come you are always shown to be off-line, yet you post

	16-11-2002 04:32									#18
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Well, the only time I would raze a city is when you clearly see you're going to lose it military, and don't want to give the enemy the added advantage of a fully working city. Which means that most likely these cities are going to be your own, or have been your for quite a few time. But razing newly conquered cities? Ouch... maybe as a punishment or a display of greatness (like nuking them back after they nuked you first)

DeepO

	16-11-2002 05:14									#19
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Just to make my point clear, I'm not advocating that we have no culture in our glorious empire, just that (whatever civ we take) we should only consider building various improvements based on their primary, non-culture effect. In my (very limited) experience, MP simply isn't a culture game. If we're afraid that cities will flip back, we'll just have to bombard, pillage and starve them first. Ah sweetness.


Dominae

	16-11-2002 06:40									#20
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Razing works a bit different in MP.

You do not get to choose to raze on conquest. You may use the abandon city option, but it takes 1 full turn in between before it happens. Not the next turn, 1 full turn cycle (or something like that, I need to test a bit). Turn 1, click abandon city. Turn 2, city still there. Turn 3, city rubble (from memory).

Also, you cannot select abandon city for all cities. I recently captured an AI capitol with a wonder in it. Abandon city is not an option to be chosen (last I looked at it).

Last thing, a city does not have to have expanded borders or large pop to avoid auto-destruct. I watched a Celtic city in a maelstrom of battle change hands several times. Started at 4 pop. Went to 1 and then changed hands several more times (none of which were to founder civ). It never auto-razed.

	16-11-2002 06:48									#21
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quote: Originally posted by alva848 trivial: Say Deeps, how come you are always shown to be off-line, yet you post

Sorry, missed this one: I indicated when I joined 'poly to not let my presence be known... which is quite easier for me. Many times, I leave a window open, even if I'm not following discussions, nor reading. People start to think you're ignoring them, which is absolutely never the case.

But, there seems to be a bug here: in the member list, I'm online whenever I look, which shouldn't happen as in the forum itself I'm off line... I guess either Markos did this on purpose, or he let things slip a little.
Come to think about it, I'd better mention it in the community forum.

As to razing in MP: thanks for the explanation, NYE. What are your views on razing?

And autorazing: once a city has built up culture under one owner, it won't autoraze in SP either, even if it drops to size 1 in a heated battle. I'm not sure if this is similar to what you are seeing...

DeepO

	16-11-2002 06:53									#22
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Really? I've had a city with a wonder in it auto raze on me when I captured it from it's conqueror in SP.

Sequence went... Egypt founds city and builds Lighthouse. Greeks take city. I approach city. Greeks draft city down to 1 pop. I take city and it auto-razes.

That would no longer happen from what I have observed.

	16-11-2002 06:57									#23
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... and I think intentionally destroying a human civ's cities would be the equivalent of starting the war to the death in most cases. Not something to be done lightly, especially since any non-involved builder civs would likely jump in against the criminals.

	16-11-2002 07:00									#24
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Well... I can't say it happens every time, but certainly I've seen this before. Of course it could be changed in PTW, or there is something else at work here, a mechanism that hasn't been fully tested yet.

DeepO

	16-11-2002 07:07									#25
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captured wonders don't generate culture , so in that case (to my knowledge) it's normal for it to be autorazed.
(slight flaw in game-mechanics IMHO btw, but that's a different discussion )

	16-11-2002 07:08									#26
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Yes, someone from Firaxis admitted to changing it a bit to me. He did not elaborate. It's all fine with me though, since I was quite upset at loosing that city and its wonder. I started a thread about it a long time ago. That thread was brought to MikeB's attention at some point. I gather they then made some adjustments.

It adds a lot to the game actually. You have 3 or 4 civs going at it and they all have armies whirling around some little out post. Nobody gives up and moves on, because the objective is still there. It can result in some very interesting sequences of turns.

1 pop cities, newly founded still go poof though. Near as I can figure it, it has to have completed a culture scoring improvement/wonder (expanded borders not required), or it has to have reached some pop threshhold before it becomes immune to the 1 pop poof.

	18-11-2002 20:03									#27
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It looks like we're going to play a religious civ, so it seems to me that we can trip, fall, and accidentally have good culture. Enough that it won't hurt us, anyway.

I'm a big fan of early temples, but I'm a bigger fan of winning, so if my fellow economists (econ controls city builds, right?) convince me that dumping the temple for something else is the path to power, so be it.

-Arrian

	18-11-2002 21:49									#28
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Arrian, don't be pursuaded too easily, please... you've got at least one early temple lover to support you

DeepO

	18-11-2002 22:15									#29
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Another one here , as many as I can in the early BC's. (often let new cities grow to two, then rush it).

But honestly, don't know in mp. Cities are going to be alot closer anyway.

	18-11-2002 22:20									#30
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As far as I can see, I'm the biggest critic of the early Temple, and I'm *not* an Economist, so the debate might be quite short!

Now, since the Temple debate is probably over (no reason not to build Temples as a Religious civ), I'll be curious to see if the Economists go all the way and start poprushing Temples...


Dominae