16-11-2002 01:01									#1
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This poll is to decide what the government position will be, and what each position controls.

The choices:

Proposal 1

President/Grand Apolyton
- The only person who actually physically plays the game
- Distributes the savegames to whoever needs them (government officials, maybe others - TBD)
- Organizes turnchats and communiticates with the members in other ways
- In charge of in-game 'government affairs' (government type, location of the capital)
- Has the decisive vote in case no decision can be reached on certain issues (maybe a right to veto certain decisions?)

Minister of Domestic Affairs
- Responsible for City Management
- Responsible for Infrastructure (PW)
- Sets Domestic Policies (Worday, Rations, Science, etc)
- Controls the Imperial Expansion agenda (where to found new cities, what to do with conquered cities)
- Naming of cities

Minister of Science, Trade and Diplomacy
- Determines what advances to research
- Conducts diplomacy with other Empires
- Responsible for all (national and international) Emperial Trade
- Since this seems to me a rather 'lightweight' function, could serve as Vice-President as well (i.e. helps President wherever needed, replaces him in case of absence)

Supreme Commander
- In charge of Army, Navy and Airforce (as well as all unconvential units)

	16-11-2002 01:12									#2
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hmm, what to vote, 2 or 3, 3 or 2.. oh these choices....so difficult..

	16-11-2002 01:21									#3
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I can't remember what I voted I think I voted 2, but it could so easily have been 4

	16-11-2002 06:11									#4
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2 and 3 are almost the same
i go w/ 4

	16-11-2002 18:43									#5
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I didnt voted yet because I dont like any the proposal!!!

The Proposal 1 is the most unbalanced. The Minister of Domestic Affairs is too powerfull and the Minister of Science, Trade and Diplomacy is too weak. I dont like this proposal at all.

The proposal 2 is better for the first 150 hundred turns since until them the Minister of Science, Trade and Diplomacy of the two others proposal will be almost useless. And in this proposal this ministery functions is divided among the ohers. But after that time the president will be too powerfull.

The proposal 3 is the one i am more for it but like proposal 2 instead of having the empire settings, sliders, government type, sci-rate, pw-rate controlled by the president i rather have it controlled by the minister of Minister of Infrastructure.

I rather think the president as someone that coordinates and controlls the decisions made by the minister. Discussing every decision that he is against with them therefore even change them. I know every citzen will be able to do this but the president surely is the one who has the last word. So i dont want him to have any specific function but he actually will have all functions.

The proposal 4 is surprising me by the fact is doing so well voted.
This proposal will makes review all Government Changes aticle since no one of the constitution writters were even consider it.
The biggest fear i have about it is that it may make the ministers too subordinated to the president. which is very likely to happen.

Last edited by Pedrunn on 16-11-2002 at 19:25

	16-11-2002 18:44									#6
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Therefore i rather have:

Proposal 5

President
- Running the game and distributes the savegames to whoever needs them (lot of work?)

Minister of Defense
- Military Units (lot of work)
- Special units, except settlers (not so much work)

Minister of Domestic Affairs
- City build orders (lot of work)
- City Management, specialists (avg work)
- City placement/naming, settlers

Minister of Infrastructure
- Terraforming/Infrastructure (lot of work)
- Empire settings, sliders, government type, sci-rate, pw-rate (avg work)

Minister of Trade, Science and Diplomacy
- Trade (little work)
- Science (little work)
- Diplomacy

Last edited by Pedrunn on 16-11-2002 at 19:00

	16-11-2002 23:49									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

i'm wondering of the legality of this poll because the current, if still wholely unofficial amendment poll demands that at least 2/3 of the citizens vote in favor of the poll, AND that 50% of the populace vote.

I predict that not enough people will vote in this poll for it to become consitutionally acceptable.

And while this isn't exactly a constituional amendment, (there's nothing to amend) I believe that it falls under the amendment category since it involves the consitution.

This poll is a great example of why there should be no requirement of a percentage of the population voting.

	17-11-2002 16:17									#8
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Me and Locutus agreed that the 1/2 citizens limit was too high so we decreased this limit to 1/3.
And thats the way it is written in the last update of the poll article

Do you think this limit is still high and we should drop this limit thing at all???

Note lets move this discussion to the poll article thread

Note2 to reah the new limit we only need two people other than me in this poll.

	18-11-2002 12:01									#9
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Don't like this poll. I am missing options here.

Especially option 4 has been dropped long time ago and is not even considered by anyone working on the connie, so as Pedrunn stated, if people here would go for option 4, we could dump anything being done on the connie so far.


Edit: Typos (way tooooo early)

Last edited by Gilgamensch on 18-11-2002 at 12:08

	18-11-2002 18:11									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Then post options you miss, there hasn't been a post in the discussion thread for 3 days now.
I thought i had the options pretty much covered with these proposals.

	18-11-2002 18:51									#11
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My suggestion:

President/Grand Apolyton:
- runs the game
- can make suggestion about changing the government (unless revolution (impeachment) occurred)
- diplomacy
- can poll about sliders (food/work/gold/PW/science)
- can decide about war-/piece-time (military-slider)
- veto right for special actions for special units.
- decides where to place PW-actions.

Minister of Domestic Affairs:
- City management (specialists/queue)
- can request PW to be used for terraforming/improvments (towards president, who will have to poll)
- expansion of cities (where.....)
- takes care of settlers.

Minister of Money:
- advances to be researched
- can request change of slider for science input/gold (towards president, who will have to poll).
- trade-routes
- request towards MDA (minister of Dom......) caravans to be build.

Supreme Commander:
- all military units, unless otherwise noted.

	18-11-2002 18:55									#12
	Tired of ads?

might look just like minor modifications, but gives the Grand Apolyton more power, than the others, instead of just making him a executer.


And option 4(?), when I remember right, is kind of out of discussion anyway. It is not longer DG, it is Monarchy/Tyranny, at least for me. It wouldn't be us deciding anymore, just the 'leader'.

And for your point, no news: No access to the web on the weekend for me

	18-11-2002 20:25									#13
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well, perhaps its time to introduce another system we use in our students parliament, making the whole elections a 3step enterprise:

1. elect a president or whatever s/he will be called by majority
2. the president makes a proposal which ministerys there shall be (and other rules of how those ministeries interact, if they seem neccessary) this proposal has to be accepted by a majority vote as well
3. elect the ministers (or whatever they are called) by majority

note: this might be rather timeconsuming of course, if all 3 steps will go through a several day poll, it can lead to having a president a system of ministeries s/he doesn't want and ministers s/he doesn't like.

	19-11-2002 04:15									#14
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Option 1: To much like USA.
Option 2: To much like a Monarchy.
Option 4: WOAH! Too open to corruption!
Option 3: Best of a bad bunch.

	19-11-2002 05:17									#15
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To Dale,
What do you suggest?
Any critics about my proposal?

To Gilg,
Your peoposal is much more tyranic than proposal 2. You almost gives absolute powers to the president. And i think you are contradictory in some parts having two position with the same or similar function.

To All,
I voted proposal 3 as i declared earlier to be the best. Still i do think that the function:
- Empire settings, sliders, government type, sci-rate, pw-rate (avg work)

Should be done by the minister of infraestructure and not by the president!!!
Therefore, if this proposal wins and we dont have another poll with the new suggestions (for me this one is ok since my proposal is almost the same as proposal 3) i would like to start a AMENDMENT poll to decide the change I want to make

Last edited by Pedrunn on 19-11-2002 at 05:27

	19-11-2002 06:04									#16
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so this thread is now useless.........

	19-11-2002 09:32									#17
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this poll is deadlocked, the thread is not useless. Hopefully people will be willing to work things out now that they know that their pet form of government isn't acceptable to the people. I forsee lots of compromise on the horizon

	19-11-2002 10:44									#18
	Tired of ads?

Pedrunn:

My suggestion:

President:
- Runs the game etc.

Chief of Military:
- Runs the military.
- Organises coup and knocks off the President. Declares he was elected legally but in actual fact rigged election.
- Assumes total authority and puts fanatically faithful in cabinet positions.
- Keeps Parliament as a tool to deceive other nations, but ignore any ruling they make.
- Lies about secret weapons caches, underground bunkers/research facilities to UN.

Sorry, couldn't resist that one.

Actually Pedrunn, I like your proposal. Give the sliders to Infrastructure. That's essentially what they are. Presidents should be figureheads, with no real power. I suppose you could give the President the "Parliament Chairperson" job to ensure everything runs to protocol, but not able to make decisions.

	19-11-2002 12:38									#19
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Pedrunn,

I was thinking of restricting the President, but then he'll be just an executioner, which I wouldn't like him to be.

But where do you think, it is Tyranny? He can't really decide anything on his own?

I could kind of live with option 3, I just don't like how it is distributed.
Diplomacy should be executed by the head of state, even if it is just presenting the people.

The sliders I am OK with it (opt3), as it effects all of us . (we'll have to stay longer at the computer )

Special units: The command should be in the hand of the supreme commander, but if our Grand Apolyton decides it is better not to execute as part of diplomacy, he should be able to place his veto against, doesn't mean he can decide on his own.

If you all really think the top of the state should be just an executioner, then we should name him so...........

	19-11-2002 14:04									#20
	Remove this text

i now actually agree with Pedrunn proposal of giving slider to another minister...

Several options new options now

	19-11-2002 14:21									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Good that we weren't around and involved when people wrote their constituion's (America, Germany, Magna Carta, ........)

We still would be without a connie till nowadays, still struggling

	19-11-2002 14:38									#22
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well, i was around the last time the studentship at our university changed its constitution, took 3 attempts in nearly 2 years. constitiouns should be written by dumb people i guess, they don't think of all the possible loopholes

	19-11-2002 15:00									#23
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That's the problem with those students, thy are there to learn nothing

Or as in German

Was hast du heute geleert (mein bier )

	19-11-2002 22:02									#24
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I voted for 2, partly to end(hopefully)this awful demonstration of true democracy at work! And partly .......well i dunno - i'm just one of the masses(hah!) putting my 'x' in the box oh yeah and to start an argument or maybe to prove why true democracy is a wholely inefficient model to run just about anything on. I think this is the reason why most world powers don't use true democracies - they just give you the illusion that that is what they are and enough choices to keep you happy. Welcome to the machine

	20-11-2002 03:21									#25
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have we had some compromise done between the two proposals that have received the most votes? because if they are very similar, then we can just combine the two, and that would probably carry the vote in a new poll

	20-11-2002 19:23									#26
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Well, proposal 1 and 4 obviously didn't make it, but several viable new proposals were made. So unless someone comes with even more new ideas within the next ~24 hours, I'd say we have 5 options to consider: proposals 2 and 3 from this poll, Pedrunn's proposal 5 (an adaptation of proposal 3), Gilgamensch's proposal (as formulated by Lemmy; let's call this proposal 6) and Lemmy's own proposal (a slight adaptation of proposal 2, which I'd like to call proposal 7).

This leaves us with how to decide on the right choice. Four options are very similar: 2 and 7 only differ in who does empire settings, the same goes for 3 and 5. The only difference between the former and latter two is the number of ministers. Only Gilgamensch's proposal is really different. So I propose we do 2 polls: 1 to determine if the president should do Empire Settings or if one of the Ministers should do that, and 1 poll to determine whether proposal 2, 3 or 6 should be implemented (where the empire settings will be moved to an appropriate minister post if the other poll indicates that this is needed).

Personally I favour proposal 7: 4 cabinet members to keep the government small (at least as long as it's possible, we can always amend the constitution to add ministers later), a sensible division of workload and the president focuses on running the game. Proposal 2 would also be very acceptable to me, but I don't like the other 5 one bit, not to start out with anyway (proposals 1 and 6 give one of the ministers a *way* too heavy a workload).

	20-11-2002 20:29									#27
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Sounds good to me

	20-11-2002 23:14									#28
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I'm against giving control over the uncoventional units to the Military. I want to see them under control of the foreign minister. The military has got enough power as it is and the foreign minister will control diplomats anyway. So give him all. The military is by far the most powerful force in the game!

	20-11-2002 23:44									#29
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quote: Originally posted by mapfi I'm against giving control over the uncoventional units to the Military. I want to see them under control of the foreign minister. The military has got enough power as it is and the foreign minister will control diplomats anyway. So give him all. The military is by far the most powerful force in the game!

I also think the minister of defense has already too much work.
As i proposed in my initial sugestion

Maybe this will be another poll ( BTW: Locutus, the suggestion is not different from a amendment poll at all, as i declared i would start one )

But before lets make a the run-off poll (2 + 3 + 6)

	21-11-2002 16:20									#30
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I think the ruler should be allowed to veto anything that the ministers/government ask him to do at the sharp end, but he/she better be able to justify the action! At the end of the day we all vote for the ruler so if anyone wants to run for a second term or more(or avoid a coup!) then they should take this into account. History is littered with rulers who went their own way on important issues- sometimes to their benefit, sometimes not...........

e.g. Barbs popping up all over the place, minister of defence is trying to raise an army to take a city, decides to leave a city poorly defended to make the attack. The ruler decides not to go with the plan, waits a few more turns to shore up defenses before green lighting the attack - has a quiet word with the minister of defence and explains his/her actions.

that kind of thing - sometimes it's only the guy on top who can see the big picture(and in terms of playing the game, the ruler will be in a much better position to actually see how the game is panning out.) and react accordingly - of course if the wrong decision is taken......well resignation/abdication is not unheard of?