16-11-2002 20:32									#1
	War Pigs Builds Winter Adjustments 1902 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Sorry for the delay, I'm not getting nearly internet access time do to my position of getting ready to leave Kosovo back to Germany. Anyway, Spring Moves due to the 22nd. My thanks to those who sent in moves early.

France: CyberGnu
Builds F Bre

Italy: Ruffhaus
Build F Naples

	16-11-2002 20:58									#2
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Map: www.angelfire.com/rebellion/orange2/warpigs/w1902.gif

	21-11-2002 00:43									#3
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is it really necessary for this game to move so slow? A week for moves...I feel like it's been ages since we've seen an adjucation...not a knock on you, Thuc, just feels to me that we can and should be moving much faster than we are...

...am I the only one that feels this way?

	21-11-2002 04:26									#4
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No, I agree. BTW, thuc seems to have disappeared..hasnt been online since sunday

	21-11-2002 09:42									#5
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I think November Adam requested a week between moves, due to other obligations (family, IIRC).

	21-11-2002 10:04									#6
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if it's a voting type thing, i'd like for turns to be more frequent as well.

	21-11-2002 11:45									#7
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oh ok, didn't know about the extention...just seems like we're all pretty good with moves, and haven't had any NMRs (well, in save the first one) so I thought it would make sense to speed things up and keep everyone interested in the game.

Take your time, November Adam

	22-11-2002 04:09									#8
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The map is missing Italian F Aegean Sea....

	23-11-2002 03:34									#9
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Well, I think I may be able to handle turns in 5 days now, but that would be about as fast as possible.

Thanks for holding out on my account everyone.

	23-11-2002 04:50									#10
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thanks ruff...updated

	24-11-2002 19:14									#11
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thuc still hasn't been online since last sunday

	10-12-2002 07:17									#12
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I am willing to GM it just had to clear some stuff up. The only thing I can see is we may need to take a week and a half break from the 24th to 5th, as I am going on holidays to Melbourne.

IF anyone goes to Redscape. I will be adjuticating like that

	10-12-2002 07:19									#13
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Its either that or we start the game again with everyone in different postions.... your choice, as I am democratic

Email liamdiplomacy@hotmail.com with the details.

	10-12-2002 08:31									#14
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keep it as is. What's the redscape way of adjuticating?

	10-12-2002 14:50									#15
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Pretty much the same....

	10-12-2002 18:03									#16
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Redscape has a set of house rules concerning many of the topics that we often debate here. THe rules from my perspective are designed to keep games alive so that the players turning in orders can can have fun, and that the GMs donating their time can do so efficiently. My recollection of them is that they are rather strict, which of cousr I would approve of.

Now, I'm not sure what Sheep is referring to, but I'd be happy to dig up the Redscape house rules for discussion here (in another thread). We've always allowed GMs their own latitude, which is probably necessary for a small cluub. But I think setting a standard and finding common ground, particularly on NMR's, civil disorder, replacements,etc. is a good idea.

	10-12-2002 18:07									#17
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As do I RAUFFHAUS. I don;t know if this game is still viable to but If it can;t continue and has died, I will start another, giving prefrences to those who joined this one.

For those intrested in redscape go to

www.redscape.net

	10-12-2002 18:19									#18
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i think we should continue with this one...it's still fresh...just contact players and tell them it's up and running again, and give a week and a half for spring moves...

	11-12-2002 03:41									#19
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I agree, that War Pigs can continue on (at least I can as as Italy).

	11-12-2002 06:32									#20
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Ruff, you might want to reread the redscape house rules again... They are more or less identical to the rules I use in the Imperial game on the CGN... Ahh, yet another community agreeing with mine and Boshkos view on NMR's...


Apart from that, let's just continue as we were.

	11-12-2002 09:56									#21
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Okay send me the necessary details.

	11-12-2002 11:16									#22
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Gnu, I don't know which thread you are reading from, but since you insist on being wrong about these matters, here's a comment from one of the site leaders/moderators (GM Chad) that was sent to me as they were helping me to set up a game as GM:


"The new House Rules (yet be posted) suggest that GMs never halt a game to wait for a replacement player should one become necessary). Post your needfor a replacement in the "Wanted: Replacement Players!" forum, but continue on with the normal deadlines. If you find a replacement, it's ok to grant a 72 hour extension for hasty negotiations. If you don't find a replacement after two more consecutive Movement phases, then put that Power into Civil Disorder for the remainder of the game. Once a power goes into CD, no
player may ever restore that Power to autonomy. This way, the game keeps moving for the players who are dedicated and keeps their enthusiasm high.
I've concluded that neither NMRs or abandonments are as destructive to game interest than continual start and stops."

I see nothing in the above that corresponds at all to what you and Boshko are doing. Please pay particular attention to the civil disorder rules, which is where 95% of the contention with the rules employed by you and Boshko has come from. There is a provision there made for games that use defaut retreats and adjustments, but this is not manditory as I understand it. Even so, this deals with NMRs and not civil disorder. It's just a guideline for establishing defaults retreats/adjustments when those are so chosen.

And once again serious competitions like tournament games never allow default orders. All the more reason not to get in the habit of playing them. I'll continue to maintain that this is a big reason why the Apolyton teams get slaughtered in tournaments, and also why people do not come to this site to play. This site is perceived as a huge joke in the Dip community. Granted, much of this comes from the 1999 WM where an entire Apolyton team NMRd and eventually abandoned their games.

Also see this post with rules clipped:

http://www.redscape.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=241

While these rules are not to the letter what I would do in my games, which follow strict rules of Diplomacy, they are clearly delineated and do not allow for chance of the potential for human (GM) bias to enter into.

	11-12-2002 11:19									#23
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my point exactly is why I would use these

	11-12-2002 17:05									#24
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Sheep, The latest map (Winter 1902) provided by orange, is linked on this thread and his post follows previous GM's announcement of the winter adjustments. The deadline for Spring 1903 was set for November 22, but the game has stalled since then. All seven players seem to be interested in continuing. I think what we need is a revised deadline to get the orders to you. Will you please post your e-mail address here on the thread? I will send my orders to you immediately following your post.

Current player lineup as I understand it:

GM - Sheep, (e-mail: ???)
Austria - November Adam, chadzs@shaw.ca
England - civman, civman2000@hotmail.com
France - CyberGnu, oxgaard@caltech.edu
Germany - orange, bobby@UDel.Edu
Italy - RUFFHAUS 8, RUFFHAUS8@aol.com
Russia - ConnorKimbro, NJKraintz@aol.com
Turkey - Du Chateau, du_Chateau@yahoo.com

	12-12-2002 07:40									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sheep Email liamdiplomacy@hotmail.com with the details.

	12-12-2002 07:44									#26
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Okay how is a deadline of Monday the 16th at 0000 GMT. I run on GMT +10 so the update would ber adjudicated within a few hours of the deadline.

I also would work on a two NMRs you are out, and the country is put into CD, unless I can find a replacement.

Good luck and happy diplomaing

	12-12-2002 07:47									#27
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Okay retreats are 24 hours after movement, or defaults are used if NRR. Builds are 24 hours after retreats and defaults are used if NBR.

There will probably be a break during Christmas for two weeks as I will be on holidays but hopefully we can get at least a turn if not two done before then. If all orders are in early I will update early

	12-12-2002 08:12									#28
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thanks Sheep. As for NRR, I prefer the retreat Off the Board policy...what is your policy (defaults?)

You should recieve my moves shortly

	12-12-2002 08:13									#29
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The policy of derfaults for me is that they go away from the units towards a SC province if available then a non SC.

	12-12-2002 08:44									#30
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Ruff, they have a document for download with all their housr rules.

Their use of COP's is more like Boshkos rules, where the prime objective is to eliminate delays.

Note, however, how they prefer to use aggresive replacements instead of "all units hold". (Actually, I don't understand how you missed that part, it is fairly obvious). This is significantly more invasive than "all units support each other".


Sheep, your rules seems good. Thanks for doing this.