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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
No, He'll go straight to Heaven for this.
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He was among top Soviet commies, a member of politburo. Commies do not go to Heaven, they go directly to hell, as you know.
quote:
It means the same in Polish Serb...
And it was because Ukraine was the frontier land of POLAND, not Russia.
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BS. Ukraine and Russia was one thing at the beggining, then mongols separated us and you stole parts of Ukraine for a while. Later Ukraine and Russia became one thing again. 13 years ago they were separated again.
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You'll be suprised, but I'm not arguing with You in that matter |
It's a miracle..
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
He was among top Soviet commies, a member of politburo. Commies do not go to Heaven, they go directly to hell, as you know.
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I've seen a film about Him, and He was praying.
They should canonise Him. He can be the patron of recovering alcoholics or something....
hmmm
quote:
BS. Ukraine and Russia was one thing at the beggining, then mongols separated us and you stole parts of Ukraine for a while. Later Ukraine and Russia became one thing again. 13 years ago they were separated again.
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It was not unification. Ukrainians tried to stay independant. When Cossacks realised they can't get respect from dumb Poles, they turned to Russia - after over a half century of revolts and attempts of getting a proper place in the state without it.
Then, Russian came, and Ukrainians lost their freedom again - to Russians, who were more effective on supressing them.
Greek-catholic (Ukrainian) church was of course destroyed where Russians could destroy it, just like Sicz was.
Eventually, instead of supporting Ukrainians, Russia got to the point with Poland it'd be the best to divide it. And so they did.
Later on, once Russians even helped Poland to supress an Ukrainian revolt. It deserved it for Human massacre, though.
As Russians took another part of Ukraine from Poland, again greek-catholic church was brutally persecuted.
And Russians treated Ukrainians as part of Russian nation, just inferior one. Ukrainian language was treaten as a Russian dialect and was persecuted.
Not that Russians weren't doing the same when it comes to others.
After ww1, Ukrainians attempted to get independant, but were forced by Red Russians to become one more puppet republic of USSR.
Moscow's brilliant strategy caused a great famine on Ukraine, in which millions of people have died.
As Ukraine got independant after the fall of USSR,
Russians never treated its independance seriously.
And if so, they treated it with anger, which can be seen in entire Sevastopol case, in demandements of returning Crimea to Russia...
It's a miracle.. [/QUOTE]
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
I've seen a film about Him, and He was praying.
They should canonise Him. He can be the patron of recovering alcoholics or something....
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He is a well-known liar and well-known dumb alcoholic. You can canonise him. We prefer to see him cannonassed.
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It was not unification. Ukrainians tried to stay independant. When Cossacks realised they can't get respect from dumb Poles, they turned to Russia - after over a half century of revolts and attempts of getting a proper place in the state without it.
Then, Russian came, and Ukrainians lost their freedom again - to Russians, who were more effective on supressing them.
Greek-catholic (Ukrainian) church was of course destroyed where Russians could destroy it, just like Sicz was.
Eventually, instead of supporting Ukrainians, Russia got to the point with Poland it'd be the best to divide it. And so they did.
Later on, once Russians even helped Poland to supress an Ukrainian revolt. It deserved it for Human massacre, though.
As Russians took another part of Ukraine from Poland, again greek-catholic church was brutally persecuted.
And Russians treated Ukrainians as part of Russian nation, just inferior one. Ukrainian language was treaten as a Russian dialect and was persecuted.
Not that Russians weren't doing the same when it comes to others.
After ww1, Ukrainians attempted to get independant, but were forced by Red Russians to become one more puppet republic of USSR.
Moscow's brilliant strategy caused a great famine on Ukraine, in which millions of people have died.
As Ukraine got independant after the fall of USSR,
Russians never treated its independance seriously. |
Blah...blah...blah...
It was Poland who opressed Ukraine, thier language, religion and culture, not Russia.
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And if so, they treated it with anger, which can be seen in entire Sevastopol case, in demandements of returning Crimea to Russia... |
And why the hell it should be Ukranian to begin with? It was conqured by Russians, not Ukranians. And it is populated by Russians now. Ukranians didn't do a thing to gain this territory. It was dumbass Khrushev who made this gift to Ukranian SSR. But they will never return it anyway, so relax.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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Russian soldiers died for Crimea, not Ukranian. Russians settled there, not Ukranians. It was Russian land untill Khrushev presented it to Ukranian Soviet Socialist Republic.
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Popovic
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Perhaps you went to university, but I guess that you weren't doing cultural studies there, right ?
You didn't get a critical eye. Or maybe only a very selective critical eye.
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Eltsin is criminal who destroyed the country where I was born. He will burn in hell for what he done with Russia. |
And I guess Putin is the holy saviour of Mother Russia.
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It was way better than modern Russian Federation |
Oh. And life was way better under Stalin too I suppose ? Though I agree that for the poor the everyday life must not have improved that much between 1990 and 2000, to say the least.
But I guess "we were bigger on the map" is a key point of your being nostalgic. Those inferior muslim peoples of Asia certainly didn't deserve independance, right ?
quote:
Do you know what word Ukraine means? |
Irrelevant
The problem is that it dates back to an era when the Russian state was not quite born yet. So whatever the meaning of the word, it can't mean Russian borders obviously. And even if you say Rus=Russia, well wasn't Kiev the center at the time ?
You should also have noticed that there are quite a few regions in Europe that have a similar meaning... All the "-mark" lands for example...
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Kiev's Rus is one thing, Ukranian civ is another. |
Right; Rus is not Russia, but it's not Ukraine either.
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It was Poland who opressed Ukraine, thier language, religion and culture, not Russia. |
Hmm Poland might have done some kind of oppression but it was nowhere close to attempted genocide. But you can still claim that there was no genocide in Ukraine just as you can say that not a single jew/rrom died in german hands. But as the Germans are an evil people (they're not Slavic) so you have no reason for denying that genocide. BTW, knowing you're a hardline backward-looking Russian, I'd better not ask for your opinion on the Jews or the Rroms.
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And why the hell it should be Ukranian to begin with? It was conqured by Russians, not Ukranians. And it is populated by Russians now. Ukranians didn't do a thing to gain this territory. It was dumbass Khrushev who made this gift to Ukranian SSR. But they will never return it anyway, so relax. |
I guess you must have a lot of respect for the people that used to live in the Crimea (before your heroes deported them); and you sure think that it must be returned to them, since "we-were-there-first" is your average argument...
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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Your probably doesn't meant they were. Name a single Ukranian unit who fought vs. Tatars there.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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They betrayed Russians and joined Swedes at Poltava. Never heard cossaks fought in Crimea. Try again.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Serb, under your reasoning Germany and Austria are a single country.  Admit it, you are a nationalist idiot who grew up being spoon fed propaganda in school. |
And under your reasoning they are different civs?
Untill 1918, Poland was divided between 3 empires, so in accordance with your logic, there was no single Polish civ, but three different Polands, right?
Last edited by Serb on 04-10-2004 at 07:47
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Serb, You have to prove that Ukrainians did not participate in the conquest of Crimea. According to You Ukraine and Russia were one state, so be consequent and admit You conquered Crimea - together.
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1) Ukraine joined Russia in 1654, not Russia joined Ukraine.
2) Russia fought vs Ottomans for Crimea during almost 100 years, since 1696 up to 1783.
3) It was poorly populated territory and most of the modern ports and cities like Sevastopol, Herson, Novorossiisk, etc. were founded by Russians and were populated/still populated by Russians.
4) Untill 1954, iirc, Crimea was part of Russia. In 1954 Khrushev gave Crimea as a gift to Ukranian SSR.
5) So why the hell it should belong to Ukraine, even if we assume that Ukraine was part of Russia since 1654?
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And, Serb, the difference is that there were separate Ukrainian and Russian states, and they are today, while there was one Poland, just under occupation of several states |
I see no difference. Ukraine and Russia was a single state from the beggining. They were separated from each other time after time, but Poland was devided three times, iirc, as well.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Serb,
If You claim Ukraine and Russia are unity, are just two parts of one being, so what's the different Crimea belongs to Ukraine or Russia? you're contradicting yourself
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I do not. Russia and Ukraine are not unity now. Now they are separate countries. So, my question remains. Even concidering that they were unity since 1654 up to 1991, why Crimea should belong to Ukraine who obviously did less to have this territory than Russia did? Now Crimea belongs to Ukraine only because Khrushev gave it to Ukranian SSR in 1954, not because it was conquered by Ukranians, not because Ukranians were/are majority of its population, but just because of Khrushev's stupid decision. You do know, that Khrushev was Ukranian, do you?
quote:
Except for Silesians, no part of Poles feels like a separate nation, and Ukrainians do... No other part of Poland was independant in last several hundred years. And Ukraine was independant for some time, or at least autonomic...
Also, Ukraine didn't just join Russia. Ukrainian uprising was going bad, so they attempted to get help from You by official union - but several years later Cossacs signed union with Poland... (Wyhowski) And later attempted to remain independant by accepting Turkish dominance... (Doroszenko)
Russia had to use force to keep Ukraine dependant - just it was more effective and ruthless than Poland in this matter. |
So what? They are independent for 13 years. Big deal.
p.s. Nobody can be more ruthless than Poland.
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25-09-2004 06:53
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