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Cian McGuire
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Philadelphia, PA
Aug 2001
time: 00:23
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My idea:
1. There has almost always been a civilization of some merit directly north of the Black Sea in the region currently known as the Ukraine from the 3rd century or so B.C. From the Scythians to the Samartians to the Goths to Khazars to the Antes Federation (the first definite Slavic community) to the foundings of the Kievan Rus.
2. Subjugated by the Mongol raiders and incorporated into the Golden Khanate in the 13th century and then swallowed by the expansion of Muscovy in the 16th century, the subsequent Ukrainian populace has managed to remain a distinct cultural group, especially through the efforts of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the later Uniate, or Greek Catholic, Church which managed to keep almost all of the Orthodox liturgy intact.
3. Several important revolts were staged throughout the history of the subjugation of the Ukraine, including Hetman Bohdan Chmielnicki's of 1648-54 against Poland-Lithuania and then Muscovy, Hetman Ivan Mazepa's inclusion in the Great Northern War alongside Sweden against the Russian Empire, the national and cultural in the late 1800's, the establishment of a Ukrainian Central Council after the Russian Empire's overthrow in 1917- which followed with a complete declaration of Ukrainian independence after the Bolshevik Revolution in 1918 which managed to last for four tumultous years until it's inclusion as one of the founding republics of the USSR, the initial welcoming of the German Werhmacht in 1941 and it's use of Ukrainians as collaborators against the Soviet Union, all of which was ended in the declaration of the Republic of Ukraine in 1990.
4. Aesthetically, the inclusion of a state north of the Black Sea would act as an excellent counterweight, and fill some of the void of the Russian steppes.
Any disagreements?
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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Russians consider Kiev Rus as their root. I see no single reason why Ukraine should be separated from Russia. We share our history.
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Lord Merciless
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The reason why Ukrain becomes a country in the first place was that power hungry local policians wanted to be their own boss.
The cultural difference between Russians and Ukrainians is probably less that between Beijing and Shanghai.
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Cian McGuire
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Philadelphia, PA
Aug 2001
time: 00:23
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quote:
Russians consider Kiev Rus as their root. I see no single reason why Ukraine should be separated from Russia. We share our history. |
All based on a false mythology. The Grand Dukes of Muscovy were seeking a way to legitimize their grab for power, and they used a tie to the much earlier Kievan Rus as a means to do so. There was no actual ties between the 16th century and the 13th century Kievan Rus; in fact, Muscovy originally worked for those who overthrew the Rus- the Mongols in the form of the Golden Khanate- as their priciple tribute and tax collectors.
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The reason why Ukrain becomes a country in the first place was that power hungry local policians wanted to be their own boss. |
That is so incredibly biased as to be not only incorrect, but ultimately misleading.
They wanted their own country to escape the depredations that being subjugated to Moscow and the "Great Russians" had inflicted on the general populace.
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The cultural difference between Russians and Ukrainians is probably less that between Beijing and Shanghai.
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I wholeheartedly disagree.
Not to mention that we're not discussing a difference on a world-wide scale, but on an intra-European one. I believe for a siginifcant portion of the time of settlement in that part of the world the indepence of a Ukrainian state in one form of the other sufficiently outweighs the paltry 500 years or so that there was direct outside control.
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Cian McGuire
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Philadelphia, PA
Aug 2001
time: 00:23
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Beren, look at the first four reasons.
Historically, there have been many dominant civilizations centered there except for the 500-year Russian interegnum. Culturally, there are enough distinctions to warrant the seperation of the two civilizations. Finally, aesthitically, there is a *huge* void on a map of Europe that would be filled with the inclusion of a Ukrainian civilization.
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by Cian McGuire
That is so incredibly biased as to be not only incorrect, but ultimately misleading.
They wanted their own country to escape the depredations that being subjugated to Moscow and the "Great Russians" had inflicted on the general populace.
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Because USSR fvcked up the economy, the local power brokers had their chance to incite the population. Suppose China's economy is in a free fall, I won't be surprised seeing coastal provinces wanting their independence, too.
quote:
I wholeheartedly disagree.
Not to mention that we're not discussing a difference on a world-wide scale, but on an intra-European one. I believe for a siginifcant portion of the time of settlement in that part of the world the indepence of a Ukrainian state in one form of the other sufficiently outweighs the paltry 500 years or so that there was direct outside control. |
Just because a state existed for a brief time of period, it ABSOLUTELY doesn't mean it deserves a place as a significant civilization. I bet the Kingdom Chu has existed far longer than Ukraine can possibly imagine, but that still doesn't warrant them as a separate civilization from China.
The conclusion is: just because someone declared independence, it's still long shot from being recognized as a civilization.
For me, Russia and Ukraine have the same culture and thus belong to the same civilization.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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Somehow I've missed this:
quote:
All based on a false mythology. The Grand Dukes of Muscovy were seeking a way to legitimize their grab for power, and they used a tie to the much earlier Kievan Rus as a means to do so. |
"The way to legitimize their grab for power"
It was really funny.
You think Dukes of Moscow of 15 century should somehow "legitimize their grab for power"?
Russia of 16 century it's not the same as USA of 21 century.
The gathering of Russian lands around Moscow's rule was recovering from 300 years of Mongol occupation and establishing new, strong enough state to prevent such thing as occupation in future.
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There was no actual ties between the 16th century and the 13th century Kievan Rus; |
And you claim that Kiev Rus of the 13 century was a state of Ukraine while Moscow of 15 century was a state of Russians?
No ties, my ass.
1) Population- Slavs.
2) Religion- Orthodox Christianity
3) The same culture.
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in fact, Muscovy originally worked for those who overthrew the Rus- the Mongols in the form of the Golden Khanate- as their priciple tribute and tax collectors. |
WTF?
Kiev Rus and Slavs were CONCQUERED by Golded horde and Slav's lands were occupied for almost 300 years.
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That is so incredibly biased as to be not only incorrect, but ultimately misleading. |
It is not. Lord Merciless was absolutely correct.
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I wholeheartedly disagree. |
Who cares? I can perfectly understand what any Ukranian is saying without translator, as well as he can understand my speech. If you'll show me a single significient differncy in Russian and Ukranian cultures I'll bu you a drink.
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Not to mention that we're not discussing a difference on a world-wide scale, but on an intra-European one. I believe for a siginifcant portion of the time of settlement in that part of the world the indepence of a Ukrainian state in one form of the other sufficiently outweighs the paltry 500 years or so that there was direct outside control. |
WHICH STATE?
Kiev Rus?
We, Russians consider Kiev Rus as OUR root, the first Slavic state.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Orz
3) I believe that Ukraine is experiencing economical and social hardships. Maybe in Russia it is worse, I am not sure. |
Russian economy is MUCH better.
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Cian McGuire
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Philadelphia, PA
Aug 2001
time: 00:23
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quote:
Main question remains: were they importantly enough? The ancient Krim was occupied by Greek colonist |
It wasn't really "occupied" by the Greeks. Yes, they had a trading post set up, and they had an adjacent town of artisans and traders, but the records seem to point that the area was controlled by the Cimmeranians, and later the Scythians.
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I think the Scythians are on a level of importance equal to the Etruskans. |
Except the area the Etruscans inhabited (north-central Italy) didn't spawn an independant or important civilization, seperate from other, leading states.
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There are dozens of cultural groups which can't be included because the limited size of Civilisation (think of say: the Fins and the Czech.) |
True, but the amalgamation of successive states which make up my proposed Ukrainian civ were neither insular, like the Finns, or completely dominated by minority rulers for all of history up to very recently, like the Czechs.
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I don't think revolts are a reason to include a civ. |
Neither do I. However, they are an indicator of a individual cultural group, which is the a valid reason to include a civ.
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Because USSR fvcked up the economy, the local power brokers had their chance to incite the population. |
Local power brokers? Incite the population? There was a mass uprising amongst all the peoples oppressed by Communist regimes; the Ukrainians were a part of this, and unless you claim that the entire disintegration of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact countries was due to "local power brokers" "inciting the population" in all of the countries from Czechloslovakia, to Poland, to Estonia, to Turkmenistan you are incorrect.
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Just because a state existed for a brief time of period, it ABSOLUTELY doesn't mean it deserves a place as a significant civilization. I bet the Kingdom Chu has existed far longer than Ukraine can possibly imagine, but that still doesn't warrant them as a separate civilization from China. |
Yet, if I was doing a scenario set in China (which is roughly equivalent to Europe in terms of land-size) I would include the Kingdom Chu.
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It was really funny.
You think Dukes of Moscow of 15 century should somehow "legitimize their grab for power"?
Russia of 16 century it's not the same as USA of 21 century. |
I don't get the tie to the (I'm assuming) American slur, however, it is true that the Princes of Moscow felt a need to justify their territorial, imperialistic intentions in the lands owned by Poland, Lithuania, and the smaller khanates owing allegiance to the Golden Horde.
First, by stating that they were the heirs of the Kievan state when in fact they were not, and second, by appointing the establishment of a new, Moscow-based Patriarch, the Tsars of Moscow felt they had sufficient reason to project their claims of superiority over 'their people'. It was merely a foreshadowing of the later claim of Panslavism.
quote:
WTF?
Kiev Rus and Slavs were CONCQUERED by Golded horde and Slav's lands were occupied for almost 300 years |
Yes, they ailing state of Kievan Rus was ultimately conquered by the Horde. However, it was the Cumans who ended Kievan supremecy of the Don-Dneipr basin in the mid-1100's, and it wasn't for until 1237 that the Mongols showed up on the scene.
At this point in time, Muscovy existed as a peripheral, and wholly unimportant city-state. Also at this point in time, Vladimir-Suzdal, a reviving Kiev, and ultimately Novgorod were the pre-eminent Christian cities in the area.
Through a combination of treachery and valour, the princes of Moscow managed to over come Vladimir-Suzdal and with it claim the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir in 1364. Secondly by currying favor with the Khan they obtained the yarlyk to act as the chief tribute-gatherers for the Horde, accepting the responsibility of payments and arrears of all the other princes. Ivan I, also known as Kalita (or 'Money-Bag') spent more time on the road back and forth from Sarai than in Moscow. In 1327, Ivan Kalita helped the Mongols to suppress a rebellion by their chief rival at that time- Tver', a Christian city-state.
It wasn't until 1380 that Prince Dmitri Donskoy challenged the military might of the Mongols; while he did managed to win a stunning victory at Kulikovo in 1380, two years later he watched Moscow burn in revenge. It was during this time when Moscow was waxing powerful, but still a vassal, that they adopted the Greek word for the Rus', Rossiya, and began to refer to themselves as Russians. They never held control of Kiev, but that didn't prevent the Muscovite-Russians from believing that they were the true heirs to the Kievan succession. However, this contentious view of history wasn't accepted by the other eastern Slavs who remained beyond Moscow's control for centuries to come- and even then only submitted to the sword.
Ivan III might be remembered by the Russians as "the Great", but in the eyes of other cities, equally legitimate (if not moreso) to the claim of owning the heritage of Kiev, such as Novgorod or Pskov he was the Antichrist, and the destroyer of what they considered to be the great Russian traditions.
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I can perfectly understand what any Ukranian is saying without translator, as well as he can understand my speech. |
I can understand British English perfectly well, however that does not make us the same culture or civilization.
quote:
WHICH STATE?
Kiev Rus?
We, Russians consider Kiev Rus as OUR root, the first Slavic state. |
Incorrectly.
The 'Great Russians' of Moscow never had a direct link to Kiev Rus until 1686 when they wrested control of "East Bank Ukraine" from Poland-Lithuania.
Similarly, Kiev Rus was not the first Slavic state, although it did grow to be the East Slav state with the greatest impact up until Muscovy's rise to international power in the seventeenth century.
And the succession of states can be roughly viewed as Scythia-> Sarmatia-> the Germanic, migratory and ephemeral states of the Goths and Alemmani -> the Hunnish state -> Khazaria -> Kievan Rus-> the assorted states of Ukraine as ruled by the Cossack Hetman-> Russian hegemony-> modern, independant state of Ukraine
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Lord Merciless
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Austria is an independent state, yet it belongs to the German civilization.
Bahrain is an independent state, yet is belongs to the Arab civilization.
Cian McGuire, you are confusing statehood with civilizations. Civilization, or culture, can encompasse more than one country. Do you think how absurd a "Bahrainian Civilization" would sound, if we use your same logic about Ukraine in that case?
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Cian McGuire
Yes, they ailing state of Kievan Rus was ultimately conquered by the Horde...
...he was the Antichrist, and the destroyer of what they considered to be the great Russian traditions. |
Well, thanks for the lecture. It's really imressive that you know so much about our history, but things you've described known to every Russian who finished basic school course of history of Russia.
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I can understand British English perfectly well, however that does not make us the same culture or civilization. |
Of course, because your ancesstors moved to absolutely new continent thousand miles away from their native land. You can't say the same about Ukraine. We lived in one state since 1654 up to 1991.
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Incorrectly.
The 'Great Russians' of Moscow never had a direct link to Kiev Rus until 1686 when they wrested control of "East Bank Ukraine" from Poland-Lithuania.
Similarly, Kiev Rus was not the first Slavic state, although it did grow to be the East Slav state with the greatest impact up until Muscovy's rise to international power in the seventeenth century.
And the succession of states can be roughly viewed as Scythia-> Sarmatia-> the Germanic, migratory and ephemeral states of the Goths and Alemmani -> the Hunnish state -> Khazaria -> Kievan Rus-> the assorted states of Ukraine as ruled by the Cossack Hetman-> Russian hegemony-> modern, independant state of Ukraine |
When I said "we consider Kiev Rus as our root, as first Slavic state" I've meant that Kiev Rus is basement for our current state. It was the state which formed our modern culture, mentality, traditions, way of life call it how you want. The most important is that it formed our current religion- an Orthodox Christianity-decisive force in our culture. Well, perhaps "formed" it's not a proper word, but I don't know how to say it better.
That's why we consider Kiev Rus as first Slavic state, as our root. OUR
An attempt to portray Kiev Rus as root of Ukraine only, looks like really big mistake in my eyes.
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joncnunn
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Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:23
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Actually, the Ukraine is currently very far down on the list of important countries in Europe.
Even the Baltic States just admitted to NATO are more important than the Ukraine which isn't. (My ranking for the Ukranine in Europe is 3rd from last. The least important country is Moldova and the second least important country is Belorus.)
Some Civs in this game were completely killed off centruaires ago though and on an all European map, it would be a good idea to include the Ukraine simply to fill the large chasm you would otherwise have between Germany and Russia. Use the charatsterics that existed prior to the Ukranie being conquered by the Mongols, when their state was at the peak of power.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Today, Ukraine is one of more important European countries. But Ukrainian language is pretty weak,
in all the east and south, Russian one dominates,
and in most of its history, Ukraine was either under Polish, or Russian rule. Also, its culture was not enough original. And all that is original there, the steppe culture and stuff, You can find in Polish poethes of Ukraine as well. |
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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Kiev wasn’t founded by Vikings. Some Vikings (Rurick and two his brothers) were invited by population of Northern Russian cities to be their princes, to stop local bloody showdowns. Big difference.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
Some Civs in this game were completely killed off centruaires ago though and on an all European map, it would be a good idea to include the Ukraine simply to fill the large chasm you would otherwise have between Germany and Russia. Use the charatsterics that existed prior to the Ukranie being conquered by the Mongols, when their state was at the peak of power. |
Bah…how many times should I repeat this?
Kiev Rus wasn’t a state of Ukranians. Ukranians didn’t existed at this moment. IT WAS STATE OF SLAVS. S L A V S.
The sate that we- RUSSSIANS consider as our root, the basement of OUR civilization.
How could you torn Kiev Rus from Russian history is beyond me.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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He didn’t conquered, if you mean Rurick- the founder of first Russian royal dynasty. There is no single mention about Viking’s conquests of Slav’s land in historical documents. Documents say that three brothers were invited by Slavs of Northern Slav’s towns to rule them and that that ended bloody war between them (Northern Slavs), which they fought vs. each other to gain control over those cities.
The rest is Heresson’s fantasies .
Last edited by Serb on 29-11-2002 at 08:52
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17-11-2002 12:37
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