19-11-2002 17:58									#31
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quote: Originally posted by finbar But I suspect, as Havak pointed out, Andy is probably playing L*****!

What an absolute, bloody champion. League'll always be the game for the working class.

	19-11-2002 18:02									#32
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quote: Leaving aside the late hit on Larkham and the subsequent 3 points.

Isn’t this the incident where the hand was broken?

quote: On the whole, the ball reached a speedster in a fairly ad hoc fashion and then it was on.

That is a wonderful description – ‘hopeful’ rugby we should perhaps call it?

quote: I'll take your word for all those changes because I don't know.

You can trust me.

quote: Do you think your backs practise together with your forwards? Do they rehearse plays?

The sad thing is I think they do. A fresh set of eyes on the training field couldn’t hurt therefore.

quote: I never get that impression with England.

That’s why watching them is such an immersive experience. You can never ever relax with them.

quote: I suspect some of it might be a hangover from the Lions tour.

There’s some of that for sure, but most of that should have been worked out last November. I’m the only one still carrying baggage from that.

Mind you England-Australia is an edgy fixture whatever the sport.

quote: Give the babies a chance to show what they've got.

It can’t hurt. Your big worry, as I think Tamerlin was concerned about, is that Italian discipline is appalling. Your youngsters might get hurt and that you do not need.

Clive has picked Christophers to replace Simpson-Daniel (who has glandular fever!). That is a choice for the future – the conservative option would have been Robinson or Healey to the wing.

quote: With that young Springbok now at the Brumbies, I suspect Pat Howard's days are numbered

Could you have a word with him for me? Encourage him to come back?

quote: Fair enough, Freier had to come on to replace Jeremy Paul, but why did his appearance have to coincide with so many lineouts?

Beats me, but it was intentional clearly given they were pretty much all Wallaby calls to do so.

The Giteau thing was bizarre – no time to play in and a real pressure cooker situation. Eddie clearly likes to blood ‘em big time?

quote: When would that have been? Around 15 years ago? I must look up which - if any - of the Wallabies he played against.

Should be 1990, maybe late 89.

And oh yes he is certainly playing L***** - the flat cap gives it away.

	19-11-2002 19:29									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Journeyman What an absolute, bloody champion. League'll always be the game for the working class.

	19-11-2002 23:05									#34
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quote: I think he has missed fouls committed by both sides, AB decoy runners,

Well, I happen to agree with Finbar on this. If the NZ decoys don't obstruct then no rules are broken. The use of decoys is effectively nothing more than giving the scrum half (or whoever) more options for him to pass to, the options all presenting themselves at once. A good opposition will organise themselves to counter such a move.

I'll agree that the use of this tactic adds another small dimension to the game, and that perhaps people who prefer rucks and mauls wouldn't like this dimension...

Did anyone see the SA Scotland game? The saffees looked like a rabble. Is the betting compo still going, and if so, what would the margin be between England and SA? I would pick England by 15. I suspect that the English forwards will start communicating with their backs in this game.

	20-11-2002 00:48									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog Well, I happen to agree with Finbar on this. If the NZ decoys don't obstruct then no rules are broken.

I'am only talking about the decoy runners who have commited such an obstruction.

quote: The use of decoys is effectively nothing more than giving the scrum half (or whoever) more options for him to pass to, the options all presenting themselves at once. A good opposition will organise themselves to counter such a move.

New tactics and new organizations can be found without adding new rules, as in the past it should not be possible to handle the ball in the back of a player to reach another one farther.

quote: I'll agree that the use of this tactic adds another small dimension to the game, and that perhaps people who prefer rucks and mauls wouldn't like this dimension...

The dimension added is not small at all in my own opinion though it is true I prefer a game with a good mix of scrums, mauls and play from the backs.

BTW have you noticed the weakness of all the SH nations as far as scrums are concerned as if your forwards were already no more used to push scrums.

	20-11-2002 02:55									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Isn’t this the incident where the hand was broken?

No, apparently he broke the bones in an attempted charge down. I don't know which one.

quote: It can’t hurt. Your big worry, as I think Tamerlin was concerned about, is that Italian discipline is appalling. Your youngsters might get hurt and that you do not need.

This is going to test my spiritual affinity with Italy.

	20-11-2002 03:01									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The Giteau thing was bizarre – no time to play in and a real pressure cooker situation. Eddie clearly likes to blood ‘em big time?

That's Eddie. He has absolute faith in his own judgement. He has identified Freier and Giteau as players of the future and that's it. But tossing a 20 year old who's yet even to play S12 into that situation was a wrong call. Apparently the kid was devasted after the match because he knew he'd taken wrong options. That's the risk Eddie ran by making the decision.

	20-11-2002 03:13									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog Well, I happen to agree with Finbar on this.

I always suspected you were a chap of taste, judgement and wisdom. I have been proved right. For the moment.

quote: If the NZ decoys don't obstruct then no rules are broken.

That's the whole point. Which leads to the question - on what basis would they outlaw decoy runners if they try to? What will they call illegal? If they decide that a decoy runner causing obstruction is illegal - the obstruction law already exists! If they decide that you can't pass a ball behind a team mate's back - they're potentially outlawing a cutout pass. As I've said before, let the IRB worry about more pressing - and real, not imagined - problems.

quote: I'll agree that the use of this tactic adds another small dimension to the game, and that perhaps people who prefer rucks and mauls wouldn't like this dimension...

quote: Did anyone see the SA Scotland game? The saffees looked like a rabble.

I saw bits of it. The Boks were very scrappy. The coach is now into making wholesale changes to the team at every opportunity which is far from a good sign.

quote: Is the betting compo still going, and if so, what would the margin be between England and SA? I would pick England by 15.

The betting comp is still alive, we just have to get our acts together in time.

quote: I suspect that the English forwards will start communicating with their backs in this game.

By letter, presumably.

	20-11-2002 03:18									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin New tactics and new organizations can be found without adding new rules, as in the past it should not be possible to handle the ball in the back of a player to reach another one farther.

So a cutout pass has to travel in front of the player it's bypassing? Cutout passes frequently travel behind the cutout player when ball and cutout player are well behind the ball carrier.

quote: BTW have you noted the weakness of all the SH nations as far as scrums are concerned as if your forwards were already no more used to push scrums.

Tamerlin strikes back!

	20-11-2002 05:11									#40
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quote: Originally posted by finbar So a cutout pass has to travel in front of the player it's bypassing?

Yes !

quote: Cutout passes frequently travel behind the cutout player when ball and cutout player are well behind the ball carrier.

What is important is that the bypassed player is not ahead of the passing player at the very moment the ball is passed, it was called an offside a long time ago.

quote: Tamerlin strikes back!

Tamerlin : I'am your father, Finbar !
Finbar : NOOOOOooooo !
Tamerlin : Yep !

	20-11-2002 06:07									#41
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Playing the best we have and creaming them will be meaningless. Playing the best we have and struggling will be death. Give the babies a chance to show what they've got.

Good in principle but I can't see it working like that in practice. The politics thing again. Having lost to both England and Ireland it'd take a very secure coach to put up an understrength team. Might mean his head on a platter if they lost yet again.

quote: I always suspected you were a chap of taste, judgement and wisdom. I have been proved right.

Now that you've publically stated such a thing about one Kiwi there's no going back. Bow to the inevitable.

quote: For the moment.

Qualifier notwithstanding.

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I'm only talking about the decoy runners who have commited such an obstruction.

Now there's that 'o' word again. [Insert some fancy quote about eyes of beholders (Not the D&D kind!) here.]

quote: What is important is that the bypassed player is not ahead of the passing player at the very moment the ball is passed, it was called an offside a long time ago.

I don't think anyone would dispute that but I don't think too many of the disputed "decoy/obstruction" claims fall into that category ... Not that I saw the game in question so maybe I shouldn't judge ...

[Edit: 3rd time lucky. ]

	20-11-2002 07:09									#42
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon I don't think anyone would dispute that but I don't think too many of the disputed "decoy/obstruction" claims fall into that category ... Not that I saw the game in question so maybe I shouldn't judge ...

Actually, before the laws were modified, I think the ball had to pass in front of the bypassed player. Though you think these new laws has added a new dimension, I don't agree as the game played by the backs has gradually empoverished to the benefit of the "battle for the center" or "battle of the centers", a more spectacular game (also more dangerous for the players) but less interesting, in my own opinion of course.

Then the Great Wizard Tamerlin throw the Planeshift spell (D&D Players' Handbook p.235) and disappear to the Ovalia Plane where the true laws of Rugby are still enforced.

	20-11-2002 07:30									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Then the Great Wizard Tamerlin throw the Planeshift spell (D&D Players' Handbook p.235) and disappear to the Ovalia Plane where the true laws of Rugby are still enforced.

Or at least thats where he would have gone if he hadn't rolled too high on the casting failure table (D&D DM's Guide p. I don't know coz I don't have mine with me) due to being up at 4:30 in the morning no doubt. Instead the Great Wizard Tamerlin ended up in Pandemonium where he was quite at home amongst the rest of the NH players.

	20-11-2002 08:29									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin What is important is that the bypassed player is not ahead of the passing player at the very moment the ball is passed, it was called an offside a long time ago.

In which case, as with obstruction, there is already a law in place.

quote: Tamerlin : I'am your father, Finbar ! Finbar : NOOOOOooooo ! Tamerlin : Yep !

Episode 1. The Tamerlin Menace.
Episode 2. Attack of Les Bleus.
Episode 3.
Episode 4. A Bleu Hope.
Episode 5. Tamerlin Strikes Back.
Episode 6. Return of The Hulking Bleu Pack.

	20-11-2002 08:34									#45
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Good in principle but I can't see it working like that in practice. The politics thing again. Having lost to both England and Ireland it'd take a very secure coach to put up an understrength team. Might mean his head on a platter if they lost yet again.

There is that to take into account. OTOH, with all the injuries - including Larkham and Jeremy Paul both already back home - even the best team on the paddock is going to be second-string.

quote: Now that you've publically stated such a thing about one Kiwi there's no going back. Bow to the inevitable. Qualifier notwithstanding.

You'd get on famously with Havak. Peas in a pod.

	20-11-2002 08:37									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Then the Great Wizard Tamerlin throw the Planeshift spell (D&D Players' Handbook p.235) and disappear to the Ovalia Plane where the true laws of Rugby are still enforced.

Good grief! Literature - of a sort - rears its head in our thread! Bet you wouldn't get literature of any sort quoted in a L***** or S***** thread!

	20-11-2002 08:39									#47
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Instead the Great Wizard Tamerlin ended up in Pandemonium where he was quite at home amongst the rest of the NH players.

Off with les lutins, I'd've thought.

	20-11-2002 09:04									#48
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quote: You'd get on famously with Havak. Peads in a pod.

Damn. I'd just gone through AHs "Would-be authors" link, noted the flag Lucarse was using, and was about to edit my previous post with some qualifiers of my own.

quote: Originally posted by finbar Episode 1. The Tamerlin Menace. Episode 2. Attack of Les Bleus. Episode 3. Episode 4. A Bleu Hope. Episode 5. Tamerlin Strikes Back. Episode 6. Return of The Hulking Bleu Pack.

LMAO - Especially at the first one.

	20-11-2002 09:23									#49
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon I'd just gone through AHs "Would-be authors" link

That thread has to qualify as the silliest, most suicidal thread in the history of this place. I hope it's archived. I gave up shooting the duck in the barrel very early on.

	20-11-2002 09:46									#50
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Good grief! Literature - of a sort - rears its head in our thread! Bet you wouldn't get literature of any sort quoted in a L***** or S***** thread!

Please, have mercy on a poor, ignorant American...

What the hell is L***** and S*****?

	20-11-2002 11:00									#51
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Please, have mercy on a poor, ignorant American... What the hell is L***** and S*****?

Well, L***** sometimes has rugby as a precursor, although most undeservedly so, and S***** is a sport recently become popular in the US (Its been huge in Europe and South America for years) that I have alluded to in a past rugby thread, but will not do so again in abject fear of the ever-growing pile of Havaks empties.



Incidentally, upon reflection, I would like to propose Finbars Ep1 above as a contender for the next rugby thread title ...
Rugby - The Tamerlin Menace!

	20-11-2002 12:54									#52
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Good grief! Literature - of a sort - rears its head in our thread! Bet you wouldn't get literature of any sort quoted in a L***** or S***** thread!

On the contrary, there has been more books published in Australia on the subject of Rugby League than Rugby Union, if you'd ever stepped into a bookstore you'd know that.

League is a more interesting game to write about, it has plenty of personality.

	20-11-2002 13:01									#53
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Please, have mercy on a poor, ignorant American... What the hell is L***** and S*****?

Just for you, Monk, in the interests of your education and ongoing friendly international reasons, I'll use the words in this thread. Any other use is strictly forbidden!

L***** refers to a game called Rugby League, a bastard offspring of Rugby Union, the game to which our threads are dedicated. The games have different rules - L***** has fewer rules because those who play it lack the intelligence to learn any more - and there are fewer players (13) in L***** than there are in Union (15) because people who play L***** are generally considered unable to count beyond 13. Dedicated contributors to this thread have been known to dance naked around burning bushes at midnight praying to The Great Game God that He or She might smite L***** from the planet.

S***** is Soccer. We dance clothed - except for Tamerlin, he hates S***** with an utter passiom, so he dances naked - around burning bushes at midnight praying to The Great Game God that He or She causes all S***** balls - en masse - to spring a permanent leak.

That's about it, really. Pure, unmitigated, rabid intolerance.

	20-11-2002 13:04									#54
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk What the hell is L***** and S*****?

He's talking about Rugby League, the working man's footy. Union has always been a sport for the elite class, the Wallabies pick up players from GPS Christian schools attended to only by the upper-middle/rich class of society and the only way to watch Super12 live is to get cable!

League is a sport open to anyone with SKILL, not MONEY and has plenty of free to air coverage. It is less complex for sure, but because of it is a smoother game than Union which stops again and again because of all the regulations. League is more creative because you can rely on having the ball for a set time and create a strategy and have a space between the opposing sides to devise brilliant set pieces.

Union is a great international sport but any rubbishing of League by some individuals is from pure arrogance. It may be in a slump through its management but it's a well loved game.

	20-11-2002 13:14									#55
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quote: Originally posted by finbar L***** refers to a game called Rugby League, a bastard offspring of Rugby Union, the game to which our threads are dedicated.

And rugby union is a bastard offspring of Soccer, it began when someone picked up a soccer ball and ran with it.

quote: Originally posted by finbar The games have different rules - L***** has fewer rules because those who play it lack the intelligence to learn any more

Games don't have to be complicated, why should sport have so many rules? It seems you love being restricted by regulations, they reduce creativity.

quote: Originally posted by finbar - and there are fewer players (13) in L***** than there are in Union (15) because people who play L***** are generally considered unable to count beyond 13.

Tell that to tactical geniuses like Lockyer, Fittler and Joey Johns. As for less players, League is a working mans sport and the working man is fit, they don't need so many to cover the field.

quote: Originally posted by finbar Dedicated contributors to this thread have been known to dance naked around burning bushes at midnight praying to The Great Game God that He or She might smite L***** from the planet.

No comment. Just who are you making fun of?

	20-11-2002 13:41									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Journeyman And rugby union is a bastard offspring of Soccer, it began when someone picked up a soccer ball and ran with it.

Its not worth arguing over a games obscure origins. In keeping with the threads current title - golf, one of the most dreary and excruciatingly tedious games ever thought up came about when a halfling named Bullroarer, IIRC, knocked a goblins head off and sent it down a rabbit hole several hundred feet away. How something so entertaining could have sunk so far is beyond me ...

quote: Games don't have to be complicated, why should sport have so many rules? It seems you love being restricted by regulations, they reduce creativity.

Heh heh. Reduced Creativity? Doesn't L***** come to a complete standstill after basically every tackle? This tackle-stop cycle to be followed by the inevitable kick up field on the last or second-to-last before the handover?

quote: Tell that to tactical geniuses like Lockyer, Fittler and Joey Johns. As for less players, L***** is a working mans sport and the working man is fit, they don't need so many to cover the field.

We're really going to have to talk to somebody about that auto-censor. Those names should have been bleeped to L******, F****** and J*** J****.

quote: No comment. Just who are you making fun of?

I wouldn't want to speak for finbar but I'd hazard a guess at an answer something along the lines of "anybody and everybody"

	20-11-2002 14:15									#57
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Or at least thats where he would have gone if he hadn't rolled too high on the casting failure table (D&D DM's Guide p. I don't know coz I don't have mine with me) due to being up at 4:30 in the morning no doubt. Instead the Great Wizard Tamerlin ended up in Pandemonium where he was quite at home amongst the rest of the NH players.

Don't try to fool me, there is no such thing in the "DM Guide" !

	20-11-2002 14:17									#58
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Episode 1. The Tamerlin Menace. Episode 2. Attack of Les Bleus. Episode 3. Episode 4. A Bleu Hope. Episode 5. Tamerlin Strikes Back. Episode 6. Return of The Hulking Bleu Pack.

	20-11-2002 14:18									#59
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Dedicated contributors to this thread have been known to dance naked around burning bushes at midnight

Any she "dedicated contributor"? If the answer is yes I would like to know where....

	20-11-2002 14:34									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Journeyman And rugby union is a bastard offspring of Soccer, it began when someone picked up a soccer ball and ran with it.

Sorry Journeyman, in spite of a common belief this is exactly the contrary, soccer is born from the game of Rugby which was neither Rugby nor S***** until William Web Ellis picked up the ball. Check the history of the game, as I did in the past, and you will be very surprised.

quote: No comment. Just who are you making fun of?