19-11-2002 20:15									#61
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"however US actions in the ME for decades (since WWII, before it was the Brits) have brought this upon us"

My bullsh!tometer is going crazy here!

	19-11-2002 23:18									#62
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well OK I'll admit U.S. actions have had some influence since the 1960's at least.

But now we are in a hole. A new generation of muslims have grown up and see us as their enemy. If we pulled out all troops now, stopped support of Israel, and did not interfere, I do honestly believe the attacks would not stop. It is ingrained in most of their heads that we are their mortal enemy.

It is too late for us I suppose . Maybe we did **** up our foreign policy in the 60's (I say sixties because that is when terrorism really started being a problem) with our support of Israel.

I'm unclear of why they created Israel. I still don't know why they did that. Can anyone explain that to me? Why not bring them all to America? We accept anyone.

	19-11-2002 23:33									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "however US actions in the ME for decades (since WWII, before it was the Brits) have brought this upon us" My bullsh!tometer is going crazy here!

ccccc.... was it not??? Do they just want to blow themselves up for no reason at all??? to quote GePap

quote: Originally posted by GePap Of course islamist dislike the US way of life, as they do the way of life in the non-Islamist world. BUt why aren' they bombing Japan, or the Netherlands, or Brazil, or mexico, or spain, or China? Because none of thse states has much to do in the ME. This tells me then that simply thinking the other side immoral is not enough to get one oin the target list.

And Diss...

quote: well OK I'll admit U.S. actions have had some influence since the 1960's at least. But now we are in a hole. A new generation of muslims have grown up and see us as their enemy. If we pulled out all troops now, stopped support of Israel, and did not interfere, I do honestly believe the attacks would not stop. It is ingrained in most of their heads that we are their mortal enemy. It is too late for us I suppose . Maybe we did **** up our foreign policy in the 60's (I say sixties because that is when terrorism really started being a problem) with our support of Israel.

I think it is true what you say... that there is no easy way out now, still creating Palestinian state, and pressing Israel a little to withdraw into the borders could help coudn't it, it is not that there was not enough time for it. Instead there is another war looming... and US is starting to behave unilateraly... well what but a receipt for disaster and proving those Mullahs correct.

	20-11-2002 01:27									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident It is too late for us I suppose . Maybe we did **** up our foreign policy in the 60's (I say sixties because that is when terrorism really started being a problem) with our support of Israel.

It started earlier with the zionist terrorists of the stern gang and the like blowing up people. They showed how it can work and the Palestinians promptly followed suit (years later).


I do think that the US could resolve alot of it bad image in that region without to much fuss. But that it views these problems as the price that needs to be paid.
And will use it for its own ends ie Iraq.

	20-11-2002 05:20									#65
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quote: promptly followed suit (years later).

I love the juxtaposition of "promptly" and "years later". It confuses the hell out of me and I love it...

	20-11-2002 06:06									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident It is too late for us I suppose . Maybe we did **** up our foreign policy in the 60's (I say sixties because that is when terrorism really started being a problem) with our support of Israel.

In the sixties, the world was basically US and allies vs. USSR and allies.
The mideast was one of the ally situations, with the USSR funding the Arabs and the US funding Isreal. Arabs got especially bitter when the tiny nation screwed over completely their plan to conquer it.


You could say just as easily it was the USSR's ****ed up foriegn policy as the US's.

	20-11-2002 07:12									#67
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Ask yourself how much of it really was the fault of the U.S. for its foreign policy and how much of the current situation is the fault of Arab nations that are riddled with corruption, use socialist policies which have economically emasculated their nations, and autocratic regimes which have allowed no decent or free expression.

Now ask yourself why has democracy and the prosparity of free market capitalism spread so quickly in every other region of the world but the middle east. The U.S. has had similiar policies in Latin America and Asia yet these parts of the world are much richer and much more democratic then they were in the 1960's.
Why is the middle east such a colossusal failure?

Could it be that Arab societies and Arab governments are really the ones who are most responsible for their current conditions? These are hard questions for people to anwser honestly about themselves and, I believe, it is much easier for the average Arab to just blame their failures upon the west then it is to find fault with themselves or their own actions.