20-11-2002 22:36									#31
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Well, I've become rather disenchanted with Firaxis, because of the way they've continually released horrible games and patches.

I am a big supporter of Civ3 1.29f, and think the game is very well-designed and relatively bug-free, and definitely worth the money. But the process getting there was long and frustrating, and now they're doing it all over again with PtW!

Has Firaxis not learned a single thing?

I was always a big supporter of Civ3, and fought against the "whiners" that complained about things like spearmen beating tanks, which is clearly part of the game. But, I'm afraid, I can't stick up for the way Firaxis has released these bug-ridden games and patches.

	20-11-2002 22:51									#32
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i confess. i'm guilty. i made people read this thread.

	20-11-2002 22:56									#33
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@MariOne:
You praised Firaxis for good PR and decent followup. This part was indeed on topic, but I said nothing about it, my words had nothing to do with it so your quote is meaningless.

For the rest of your post:
"Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder"

	20-11-2002 23:05									#34
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quote: Originally posted by woody Well, I've become rather disenchanted with Firaxis, because of the way they've continually released horrible games and patches.

I don't like buggy games, either. But tell me: would you have prefered to have a 1.29 civ released in october 2002 instead of those 9 months of playing? I don't think so.

Btw, Civ3 wasn't horrible, even the unpatched one. The game mechanics was the same. It was the same game with some annoying bugs. It wasn't unplayable or horrible.

Now don't get me wrong. I'd be happy to have a bugless, perfect game out of the box. But since this is very unlikely to happen, I'm happy that they continuously support their products.

	20-11-2002 23:27									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I don't like buggy games, either. But tell me: would you have prefered to have a 1.29 civ released in october 2002 instead of those 9 months of playing?

I'd have preferred to wait until at least Feb. 2002, which is when they released the first patch. The game was playable after that, although still very buggy.

Okay, so I've learned my lesson. I will never again pre-order a Firaxis game, nor buy it until it's been out several months and the bugs are fixed. Of course, by then, I may not bother picking it up at all.

Is that really the message that Firaxis wants to give to its customers?

It's also difficult to tell how unplayable a game is by just reading comments. You tend to get extremes, from whiners who complain about everything because they suck at the game, to fan-boys who would praise a smelly bowel movement from Sid. So, in the future, I'll lean on the side of caution before buying any Firaxis game, even if it gets good reviews.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Civ3 v1.29f is a fantastic game. But, getting there left me with too many doubts about the competence of Firaxis staff.

	20-11-2002 23:57									#36
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'We certainly regret that PTW’s debut was less than what people have come to expect from Firaxis Games.'

>>hysterical laughter<<

My, some people have a weird sense of humour...

	21-11-2002 02:45									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG i confess. i'm guilty. i made people read this thread.

AFAIK you are twice guilty: you also manage this whole hell of a site, the Apolyton, with some diabolic help from DanQ and many others fallen angels... usually a job well done, IMHO

	21-11-2002 06:29									#38
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I'm happy to have read this letter, from Firaxis... It brought to mind another letter from Activision about CTP2. The difference is that the contents of the letters are polar opposites... Firaxis pledges support to make it a higher quality game, while Activision simply said "okay see ya later." Kudos to Firaxis

	21-11-2002 06:36									#39
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I concur with your analysis centrifuge. I too believe that Firaxis will not follow in the same foot steps as Activision.

	21-11-2002 08:46									#40
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la la la

I remember lots of upset fans last year when Civ3 came out, and gee more upset fans now that they release PTW (which should have been with the original). Oh well, nothing is changing for Firaxis.

After however many months since the game came out, I never bought it, never played it, never even seen someone else play it....

And I'm just dandy.

	21-11-2002 09:26									#41
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Trolls out forrrr-ever!

	21-11-2002 10:11									#42
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quote: Until I see a Firaxian own up to that, I will keep in mind that it came through (from?) Infogrames.

The quote was from Infogrames . . . it's on the opening news board.

Who made the quote wasn't my point or concern . . . I just thought the statement was a comical example of absurd irony.

	21-11-2002 11:27									#43
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet I hold the opposite viewpoint. They owe us absolutely nothing. If we don't like their games we don't buy them. If you bought Civ3 or PTW and don't like it then return it to the shop for a refund. That is your right as a consumer. Nobody is forcing us to play Civ3 and nobody is forcing Firaxis or Infogrames to keep funding the development team.

That is the old "Pay - and keep your mouth shut" argument. It is totally specious.

We are not walking into an electronics store and buying a new CD player. We have been discussing the Civ games on forums for many years, and user creation and modding has kept the Civ franchise going for a long time.

Beyond that, forums are the ONLY place where we can get accurate and true reviews and comments on a game. We surely can NOT in gaming world Industry reviews which acted as Firaxis shills almost a year ago.

Considering how user effort, discussion, and interest has kept the Civ franchise going, Firaxis owes us a lot more than "if you don't like it don't buy it" nonsense. Same with just giving us a refund. Many people do not want a refund - THEY WANT A GOOD GAME.

After Civ 3, and all its inadequate patches, I knew what a mess PTW was going to be, and I was right. So they did not get my money on that. Seeing the forums and what a mess it is I am not surprised knowing Firaxis.

Firaxis owes us all the courtesy and consideration of doing more than giving us a refund. I will do more than just refuse to buy Firaxis products in the future.

	21-11-2002 12:06									#44
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You are not owed Civ, Coracle. You, and others like you sound like 6-year-olds who demand moma.

Well, guess what? Grow up. We are not 6 anymore, and moma can't save us from disappointments. Your rights end at the expiry of the return period. Get used to it.

Firaxis owes you squat. You have not spent a dime on PTW. You are a troll, like many of the other trolls who have crawled out of the wood work.

	21-11-2002 12:08									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Chronus The quote was from Infogrames . . . it's on the opening news board. Who made the quote wasn't my point or concern . . . I just thought the statement was a comical example of absurd irony.

I agree, and I doubt anyone from Firaxis said it. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

	21-11-2002 12:44									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle That is the old "Pay - and keep your mouth shut" argument. It is totally specious.

I am not an english major, but totally is and adjective and so is specious. Adjectives are used for nouns and other substantive terms. So your sentence is not even a valid one. The statement can be either specious or not specious.

	21-11-2002 17:23									#47
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good going vmxa!
ctrl alt del that sucker!

	21-11-2002 19:04									#48
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"Totally" is an adverb, and adverbs can be used to modify the adjective "specious" in a proper sentance .

	21-11-2002 19:33									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich I concur with your analysis centrifuge. I too believe that Firaxis will not follow in the same foot steps as Activision.

I wouldn't be to sure about that. Infogrames appears to have 1.5 feet in the grave. Check out finance.yahoo.com and read the horror stories about their financial woes. If/when they go belly-up, Firaxis's money stream will be cut off (Infogrames or the bankrupcy holdings will get the revenue from Civ3 sales). Firaxis is not going to work on patches for free.

I think it's foolish to buy PtW with the hope that it will eventually be patched to an acceptable quality. Wait a few months, and pick it up if it ever gets fixed properly.

	21-11-2002 19:40									#50
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Firaxis owes you squat. You have not spent a dime on PTW. You are a troll, like many of the other trolls who have crawled out of the wood work.

Sigh... fanboys.

Firaxis might not owe a customer anything monetary, if the store accepts refunds (many do not). But, if they want to salvage any kind of reputation at all, they do owe customers an apology and a reversal of their dismal release and patch performance.

So far, they keep proving the Firaxis-bashers are right, again, and again...

	21-11-2002 19:58									#51
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I would second Marione's opinions pretty much across the board.

The PTW release seems like the low point for this company and I am glad they finally have decided to look PR up in the dictionary.

	21-11-2002 20:44									#52
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quote: Originally posted by woody But, if they want to salvage any kind of reputation at all, they do owe customers an apology and a reversal of their dismal release and patch performance.

Dismal patch performance? How many patches do you want them to release? Do you want buggy patches released NOW?


How old are you Woody? Is it necessary to start every comment with a shot at the people who enjoy the game?

	21-11-2002 20:56									#53
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The single-player changes are nice, especially how they combine to relieve the tedium that formerly characterized the late Industrial Age. However, I still feel ripped off as multiplayer was the reason I bought PTW. I am currently playing a game as the Koreans in the Modern Age and have not gotten my Golden Age yet despite many battles with my special unit and completion of many Scientific Great Wonders. I hope this gets fixed!!

	21-11-2002 22:08									#54
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I think the new patch will be include with the european version ... that's good.
there is delay, it is perhaps because of that

	21-11-2002 22:41									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DilithiumDad The single-player changes are nice, especially how they combine to relieve the tedium that formerly characterized the late Industrial Age. However, I still feel ripped off as multiplayer was the reason I bought PTW. I am currently playing a game as the Koreans in the Modern Age and have not gotten my Golden Age yet despite many battles with my special unit and completion of many Scientific Great Wonders. I hope this gets fixed!!

You need to satisfy both trait requirements to get a Golden Age from Wonders, meaning you need a Scientific and a Commercial one in case of the Koreans.

On topic: I like the work on SP (just like another patch, really) but think PtW not worth the money until they fix MP.

	21-11-2002 23:06									#56
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quote: I am glad they finally have decided to look PR up in the dictionary

i continue to be amazed by some people's need for PR(=Public Relations)

if they wanted CS(=Customer Satisfaction, a just-made-up-by-MarkG term) i'd understand it

but PR is useless at the end of the day. PR doesnt remove bugs from my game...

	21-11-2002 23:22									#57
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG PR doesnt remove bugs from my game...

It does turn the 'bugs' into 'features', though.

	21-11-2002 23:24									#58
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hi, i m a developper too... don't worry. your game is great i think your game was unfinished. there is a commercial pressure i think.
commercial is not a developper task. it's a political one.
so, don't worry and debug....
++

	22-11-2002 00:01									#59
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Cian McGuire you are correct, that is what I get for doing things so late at night or early in the morning.

	22-11-2002 00:08									#60
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Dismal patch performance? How many patches do you want them to release? Do you want buggy patches released NOW?

By dismal performance, I'm referring to a horrible initial release, 2 lousy patches that broke as many things as they fixed, and a full 9 months until they finally released a good version. If the game wasn't ready to be released (and it clearly wasn't), they should have waited until it was ready.

quote: How old are you Woody? Is it necessary to start every comment with a shot at the people who enjoy the game?

What shot? I happen to very much enjoy Civ 1.29f. It's a very good game. Perhaps you should take off your fanboy glasses and see that not everyone who criticizes Firaxis hates Civ. (That was a shot, but clearly you deserve the favor in return.)