04-12-2002 19:23									#121
	Got spare money?

Good point Vel - I don't buy Fords anymore because the ones I've purchased have required way too many fixes. For some reason I don't hold software to the same standards; if I like a game, I don't care how many patches it takes to get it working 100%. So I guess I'm part of the problem, not the solution.

	04-12-2002 19:26									#122
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And Stuie....I'm not razzing anybody for liking the game....a forum search will reveal that I was once a quite vocal supporter of the game. Just so you know....

I remember your vocal support of the game. And I'm not razzing anybody for not liking the game. To each his own; I happen to enjoy PTW (once I modded it appropriately, of course ).

	04-12-2002 20:04									#123
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Kudos for exercising your rights as a consumer. You weren't happy with the quality of Fords, and you didn't buy another one.

I can certainly understand why some people wouldn't or don't hold software companies to the same standards as, say....autos, but I do.

I get a brochure or a pamphlet on a car that specs it out and hypes it up, then if I buy that car, I expect it to meet what company representatives are saying about it WHEN I DRIVE IT OFF THE LOT.

If they tell me it's got 900 horsepower, then BY GOD, I want all 900 of them from the moment I drive it off the lot....not 300 now, 200 in the first patch, another 150 in the next one, and so forth.

And I expect the same thing out of software. I want what *company representatives* are describing their product as, and I want it from the moment I open the box and install it.

Here's another example....another quote pulled from the Civ3 site, regarding PTW:

Play the World is a packed multiplayer expansion. One that we hope satisfies our customers' desire to reach out and crush players around the world!

Doesn't matter that they patched the MP code later to make it work...the ONLY question in my mind is....given that THIS is what they're hyping PTW as....Is this what you got out of the box? The ability to play opponents around the world?

Did the software out of the box live up to this statement (quoted earlier):

our main goal with Civ III: Play the World was to provide the ultimate Civilization multiplayer experience. This meant taking what worked from previous incarnations of the series, and mixing them with new and innovative features.

-=Vel=-

	04-12-2002 21:57									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

With MOO3 out soon, we'll have a good comparison to CIV3, especially since they're both published by the same company.

	04-12-2002 22:22									#125
	Increase Your PM Length

With these new features: Direct IP especially... I wonder if Macs are slowly going to be supported...

Any word on that? No time to read all 7 pages.

	05-12-2002 00:24									#126
	Suffering from ads?

Good question, Flash...I'm sorry to say that I'm not sure. Probably, the answer to that is the same as the answer to a lot of questions.

Maybe....if enough people buy PTW to make it worth their while.

And my apologies to anybody who might be offended by my little tirade, but please understand that I do NOT consider this debate to be about "is Civ3 cool or does it suck?"

In my mind, it has nothing to do with that (which is an entirely subjective debate in any case). It has *everything* to do with company representatives hawking their products as being one thing, and what you get when you open the box is NOT what they said (see above quotes). In that case, H*LL Yes! You, as a consumer have EVERY RIGHT and reason to hold their feet to the fire. I believe that's commonly referred to as the ol "bait and switch" routine. It's not about whether you personally bought PTW for it's MP features...it's about the company saying one thing and delivering something else.

They didn't hype the SP features of PTW...even the NAME of the expansion implies an MP experience, and that, plus the quotes I already used, is the basis for fact that PTW was hyped *by company reps* as a multi-player expansion (else I suppose the title would have been "Civ3 - Play With Yourself" which might not have gotten them as many sales, come to think of it )....more specifically, it is hyped *on the Civ3 site* the "the ultimate Civilization multiplayer experience."

Didja get what they said you would when you opened the box?

Let's frame the example in some other industry and see how long said company would survive...cell phones. That's a hot market.

Introducing the new Civilization Mach 3 Cell Phone!
......Yours in a spiffy Tin holding case for an extra ten bucks, with a note from the designer subbing in as designer's notes!

Yeah...we know....we know....coverage ain't all that great and some of the buttons are missing or don't work yet (editor), but hey....if enough people buy our phones, we might be persuaded to send you working copies of those buttons later, so c'mon! Tell all your friends!

Oh....you actually wanted to call OTHER people on the phone? Sorry....we had planned on making that feature available, but pulled the plug not long before the release of the phone, but isn't it *Attractive!* State of the art!

You know....now that you've bought the phone, for an extra 50% of the original purchase price, we'll sell you "Civilization, Phone the World"....it's that feature we hyped up when initially developing the phone, but wound up pulling the plug on, but now....if you send us another love letter, we'll include it. That's *almost* as good as getting it free, isn't it?

What? You bought "Civ3 - Phone the World," and you want to make something other than LOCAL calls (LAN) on your phone? Hey, c'mon....we promised "call the world" in the title, but really...isn't local enough?

Oh....alright. We'll patch it. If enough people keep sending those love letters in....

Just out of curiosity....how long would you keep phone service with these guys?

-=Vel=-

	05-12-2002 00:31									#127
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Just out of curiosity....how long would you keep phone service with these guys? -=Vel=-

Vel... nice point... except in the case of cell phone providers, we as consumers have a whole lot of choices. For TBS games like Civ3, there's not a lot of NEW material out there being produced for and played by a large audience.

I think PTW would have been a much better product if there was some real competiton about that threatened Infogrames' bottom line.

Oh, and I'll ask again... anyone have any idea what an "Infograme" is supposed to be?

	05-12-2002 00:39									#128
	Support Apolyton

Watch for Candle'Bre and other Indie projects....we might not be on anybody's RADAR screen yet, but I assure you....we're coming.

As to what an Infograme is....my guess would be a small, bespeckled mole-like creature....

but I could be mistaken....

-=Vel=-

	05-12-2002 00:43									#129
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Velociryx -

Thanks for your posts. You are hitting the nail on the head with each one. I agree wholeheartedly.

thanks again

	05-12-2002 00:49									#130
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Watch for Candle'Bre and other Indie projects....we might not be on anybody's RADAR screen yet, but I assure you....we're coming. As to what an Infograme is....my guess would be a small, bespeckled mole-like creature.... but I could be mistaken.... -=Vel=-

I've been peeking in on the Candle'Bre and Freeciv boards from time to time... looks very promising - but I just hope they don't lose steam.

I'm a little disappointed that Brian Reynolds' new venture is a RTS, not a TBS... looks like a highly evolved sort of AOE to me...

	05-12-2002 00:50									#131
	Support Apolyton

Thanks man! Although with each post, I can almost feel the stakes getting higher and higher where my own indie game project is concerned.....if it flops for any reason, I don't suppose I'll ever hear the end of it....but *rightly so!*

It's about accountability, after all....and if our group releases a steaming pile of #$%$ of a game, then we'll deserve every bit of venom tossed our direction, and then some.

Looks like I have all the more reason to make d@mned sure we succeed....

-=Vel=-

	05-12-2002 00:53									#132
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Just out of curosity! Has the phone business been in business for over 100 years?

I guess to me, that is exactly what the communications industry is!

There's civilization for you!

Hit it right on the head!

And yes, most are still in business, and still are doing the same things!

	05-12-2002 01:09									#133
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And now with the computer game, you people finally are talking about 'civilization', while taking your car in for the next recall.

You guys and gals (if any) are funny!

A game comes out, not quite right, and you people end up talking about the very subject of even having a civilization and a Internet to play it on -- in the game.

Then its Bloodbaths according to someone else on this forum - when humans playing together.

Next the game probably will be fixed, people will get tired of having bloodbaths playing other humans, then a few people will want only to play the single player game, like when it first came out.

The competition may be too much for some people.

Welcome to real life through a computer game called 'Civilization'!

Oh, don't stop discussing all of this real experience you are having out of a computer game!

Virtual life!
Next!

	05-12-2002 03:56									#134
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Comparing software to any other industry is pointless. No other industry has the same strengths, weaknesses, or capabilities to fix a product after sale.

There is a marketing department to satisfy. As well as directors of the corporation (IG) and share holders (investors). The players are not the only factor in the equation. And as I have pointed out in other posts, I have seen majorly FUBARed releases from just about every major player in the computer industry (hardware and software). If you do not like it, perhaps you should swear off computers (not just Firaxis and IG). I swear, stick around long enough and it will happen again, and again, with many different products from many different vendors.

It is the nature of the beast.

	05-12-2002 04:04									#135
	Remove this text

quote: Precisely *because* you cannot see or feel or touch or test a software product prior to its purchase

ever heard of demos?

quote: the ONLY mechanism you have of making an informed purchase decision is the buzz that the software generates and the description on the box.

i believe the "buzz"(i call it info) found on sites like ours help people a lot...

	05-12-2002 06:04									#136
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

i have a question, why is the anouncement for this thread still at the top of almost every single forum except for this one? including the OTF, where almost no one cares about computer games

	05-12-2002 07:10									#137
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Damage control

I suspect if MarkG was a civ addict he might have a very different opinion on the product quality issue.

I'm not even sure he still plays TBS games any more. He certainly doesn't Multi Play as far as we know. So what would he care about PTW's MP features?

Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 05-12-2002 at 07:17

	05-12-2002 07:21									#138
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

So you're saying that the software industry has more factors to consider than any other industry in the economy?

That there are no lessons to be learned from other industries because software design and development is such a very different beast?

That auto makers do not also have to cater to purchasers (the equal of "users" or "players" in this instance), investors, shareholders, their marketing and design crews, etc?

I contend that they certainly do, and in fact, the sum-total of marketing dollars spent by the auto industry is of a dollar value probably surpassing the net worth of all the game companies in this industry combined.

Additionally (to continue to use auto manufacturing as an example) there are federal safety regulators and regulations to contend with, environmental controls, and a whole host of other legal nightmares simply not found in the computer software business.

On balance then, the software industry has it light in comparison, because in addition to having fewer regulations to deal with, they DO have the ability to fix their broken products more easily.

An expensive game may have a production budget that runs into the low millions of dollars. To bring a car from concept to showroom costs....I have no idea, but I would venture a guess that it's a good many times more than that....and yet, in that industry, dealers and consumers are not expected to pay for the product before it exists.

I wholeheartedly agree, there are enormous differences in methodology, but quality and craftsmanship is a universal constant in the world of business. Quality is quality no matter where you go.

Except of course, when it comes to making games.

Here quality is whatever you can get ready for the Q4 selling period.

Never mind the fact that the whole of the retail business lives and dies by Q4 results (in that, the software industry is hardly unique). Never mind the fact that every other retail-oriented industry has to produce quality products or be shut down by their competition.

Ahhhh, but not in the topsy turvy world of games! And because it is the norm to ship it by Christmas no matter what shape it's in, we should all just continue to shell out those dollars and keep taking what they so offer us for sale, cos that's just the way it is, right?

I would also say that simply because a company has the ABILITY to release a broken product and fix it after they take your money does not automatically make it a good business practice.

Just because they can, does not mean they should.

We can, after all, institute full-scale human cloning right now.

Should we?

But even if you firmly believe that it just can't be changed....that this....what we have right now is the nature of the beast and there's simply nothing to be done about it, the fact remains that when you opened the PTW box and installed it, what you got for your thirty bucks was not....was NOT what is described and hyped in the quotes I pulled from the Civ3 website as being PTW.

It was not a synthesis of old ideas that worked and new innovation.

It was not the ultimate Civ multiplaying experience. While it allowed players to "Play the LAN," it did not allow players to "Play the World" (which was, if the name of the release is any indication, the point) with any sort of reliability, was it?

Because it was not....and because Civ3 out of the box was not the product described on the web site or by the hype (or for that matter, on the print of my LE Tin), is it really accurate then, to say that this is not "the sort of high quality *release* we have come to expect from Firaxis"??

I'm not makin' this stuff up.....all of this comes straight from Firaxis employees and/or the Civ3 website.

And the words there do not equal the reality.

That, to me, is the key....perhaps even the only point.

You can argue the merits or shortcomings of the game until you are blue in the face and not make one inch of headway. Subjective. Depends on your point of view, and precisely why I refuse to debate the issue. I got my money's worth out of Civ3. Some enjoyed it more....excellent! Some enjoyed it less....too bad. Subjective.

What is NOT subjective....what is NOT POV-dependent is the fact....the FACT that what you got when you opened the box was a very different animal than what was described on the company's own site. Maybe you didn't care....maybe you bought it for the SP features...and if so, that's GREAT! You got your money's worth, I'd bet!

Still doesn't change the fact mentioned above.

Impromptu poll.....who among the readers of this thread was expecting a high quality (meaning, relatively bug free and with a high degree of polish) PTW release?

Show of hands there?

-=Vel=-

PS: I would also say that you're in for a real treat when the first Velocigames product is ready for prime time.

See...until it's ready, we'll be giving it away....GIVING, not taking. And we'll be watching and listening to customer reaction. And we'll be doing something about it.

We'll release the game *for sale* when it's ready to be released.....maybe a bit later than that even (gotta take Q4 into account, after all), but we won't be releasing it before it's ready. That's a promise.

We might not be as speedy as the big guys, but what you get will be quality craftsmanship, and if we offer a patch, then it won't be to make the game more like how we described it....it'll be to add to or expand its scope.

Lunacy? Heh....maybe. But if so....what a refreshing form of lunacy.

-V.

	05-12-2002 08:47									#139
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Actually Vel, I've been playing people from across the pond (the Atlantic) since long before anyone saw the box on the shelf (they and I had good connections).

I will stress that many people who are posting here are forming opinions based on complaints from some who had a hard time getting going, or who found it impossible to start games under certain circumstances through GameSpy, or whose setup (computer, network, etc) have never allowed them to get going.

I observe at this point that the complaining is now feeding upon itself. People who have absolutely zero clue, because they have never tried it, are coming along and picking up the torch and complaining. It is almost funny, in a strange sort of way.

btw, no, PTW was not finished when it was released. It stood to be improved a great deal. It is being improved. Be that as it may, it is simply untrue that nobody was able to 'Play the World'. I and many others have been playing the world for a while now. That is a FACT.

	05-12-2002 08:56									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx What is NOT subjective....what is NOT POV-dependent is the fact....the FACT that what you got when you opened the box was a very different animal than what was described on the company's own site. Maybe you didn't care....maybe you bought it for the SP features...and if so, that's GREAT! You got your money's worth, I'd bet! Still doesn't change the fact mentioned above.

Maybe... but what is the relevance?

Why do I care what was on the box or on the website if I am happy with the game? Gameplay for me is the only point, not the marketing.

You might have a point, but I see the examples you previously used, the ultimate blah blah, as being pure puffery and therefore something to be taken with a grain of salt.

Also, with no disrespect intended,
You have stated that you do not have PTW.
How can you make a claim that the game did not come as advertised, as you have no personal knowledge? My personal knowledge is that it was ok out of the box-playable mp, but in need of improvement, a far cry from your description.

	05-12-2002 09:09									#141
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Like nye, I played people from across the pond with reasonable success. Actually, now that I think about it, nye is the main person I had any difficulty getting an enjoyable MP game going with because we always had red ping to each other.

	05-12-2002 09:14									#142
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I have to disagree, Vel. If you don't have PTW, how can you make statements such as "it did not allow players to 'Play the World?'"

NYE is right about the boards. Several of the complainers here have taken up the "no MP" act without even owning the game... the same was true with various issues in Civ3 when it came out. You appear to be basing your opinions off the boards, which are known to be a source of concentrated criticism (why post if you have no problems?) and spur-of-the-moment comments that may have no basis in what is true or factual. Echoing those arguments is ok, but for somebody who doesn't own the game it doesn't look very objective at all.

In all, your statement is not very credible.

	05-12-2002 09:20									#143
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I am basing my opinions on the following information from the CEO of Firaxis, and found in the first post of this thread:

"....there are connectivity and lag issues with the internet multiplayer component....we’re addressing these issues....and are working diligently to remedy the situation....

The patch we are testing addresses issues related to internet play including, fixes to the matchmaking process via GameSpy Arcade, improvements to overall game speed, fixes for lag issues and “player-drop” crashes, and the addition of Direct IP support."

I am assuming that as the CEO of the company, if he says there are connectivity issues, then there are probably connectivity issues. I can think of no stronger indication of actual connectivity and lag issues than the statement by the company CEO that they are working on those very issues.

As to the relevence....::shrug:: if the accuracy of the company's own information about their products is unimportant to you, then I guess there IS no relevence....but in most cases, it's stuff like that....company product information....that people use to make informed decisions about a given product.

If the information is inaccurate, do you not think that important? If for no other reason, than a PR POV?

-=Vel=-

	05-12-2002 09:24									#144
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

If my argument is not credible, then my source of information is *also* not credible...in this case, the letter from Firaxis' CEO and the Civ3 website. Those are the two places I went for information. I did not base my opinion on the complaints on the boards here, but rather, stuck with information from the company's own website, and from the letter bearing the CEO's name.

-=Vel=-

	05-12-2002 09:33									#145
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Vel, I love ya buddy, but I see you doing the same as others of lesser renown have done.

Take one statement, or 10 posts, and blow them out of proportion.

What is NOT subjective....what is NOT POV-dependent is the fact....the FACT that what you got when you opened the box was a very different animal than what was described on the company's own site. Maybe you didn't care....maybe you bought it for the SP features...and if so, that's GREAT! You got your money's worth, I'd bet!

The FACT, is that I have a longish list of people with whom I can get exactly what is listed on the box.

The FACT is that there were issues with games launched or started on the full GS Arcade that others did not find because they did not use Arcade.

The FACT is that many people have been skulking around with warez versions (that are broken, and some of which are ALPHA) and complaining about it not working.

There are many FACTs. One of them is that it could have been much better, and it could still get better yet. Just please, do not buy into the totally broken and devoid of merit horse hockey. It's not. It works well enough that many people are having a lot of fun with it in both SP and MP.

	05-12-2002 09:34									#146
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Vel, Jeff wrote that before the latest patch. The one that solved the connectivity and lag issues with the internet multiplayer component. That may have been true then (a little overblown, IMNSHO, as I was successful in playing it for quite a while), but it isn't and hasn't been true since you've started posting on this thread.

FWIW, nye has probably played more games of PTW than Jeff. It gives him a little credibility in my eyes.

	05-12-2002 09:41									#147
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yes...but that has been my point from the beginning....I fully realize that the patch has in fact, addressed the connecitivity problems.

My point was, and remains that had it worked as advertised out of the box, then there would have been scant need of a letter by the CEO of Firaxis stating that there ARE (were) problems, and that they're working on them.

Thus....the information on the company website was not accurate at the time of release.

What I'm NOT saying is that the company isn't committed to fixing problems in the game. You guys know me better than that....I'm not here to start a mindless flame war, or get sucked into the fanboy/troll game.

I'm simply pointing out that *had the game worked as advertised* then this letter....this thread would not exist. There would be no NEED for it to exist.

Even the most ardent supporter of the game must concede at least that.

The company sold a product that did not work as advertised. Why else would they have had to release a patch fixing MP....which was the flagship piece....the most touted portion of PTW....the part, in fact, that the expansion was named after?

If it was never broken, then why fix it?

-=Vel=-

	05-12-2002 09:49									#148
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It needed improvement, Vel. It was not completely broken. Most of my list of people to get good games with was assembled before 1.14.

However, due to there being an Alpha warez version out there, and due to the snags with GameSpy, and due to the number of legitimate players who had problems, among other things no doubt, the letter from Jeff was a good move for Firaxis to do.

However, I stress that it was a combination of things that led to the mess that was the initial release period, from my POV. If I could get my hands on the jerk that leaked an Alpha I would... Grrr! That right there caused massive grief. Guaranteed crash for everyone in the game.

Then there are other warez versions that have problems. Some of the slime balls have actually had the nerve to complain that their 'disk' has errors and to ask why that file was not included. Grrr!

	05-12-2002 09:54									#149
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

::nodding:: Point very well taken....and I totally agree with and sympathize with problems that a leaked or warez version of the game can cause (I know how utterly p*ssed I would be if a rogue CB version leaked out!)

But not completly broken = not completely working, yes?

-=Vel=-

	05-12-2002 10:00									#150
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Vel, the Firaxian said there were issues, not that nobody could play the world. That's a great deal of exaggeration, don't you think?

You either made that point of view from the letter or got it from the boards, since certainly it isn't your own, not having PTW. The letter says nothing even near as damning as you do, so you either got it from the boards (not a great source for unbiased info) or you read something into the letter that is not stated directly. Nothing shouts to me that the CEO is to blame for the credibility gap in your argument.

Vel, I appreciate your comments on the game, but I think you’re going a little far here… be wary of inflating opinions or statements here to undue proportions.