06-12-2002 13:16									#211
	Tired of ads?

Have you lot got nothing better to do! no job to go to? no women to satisfy? no kids to shout at?

I think all of you in this debate have repeatedly stated your points with no real impact on each other, maybe nuff said eh.

	06-12-2002 13:16									#212
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx As to patching.....total agreement. Everybody patches, and why the heck not? With the 'net, it's easy. Maybe too easy. Would it be fair to say though, that there is a difference between patching to FINISH (that is to say, to bring a product up to the minimum described specs) vs. patching to enhance (that is to say, adding new features, or changing/improving old ones)? Fair to say that there's a fundamentally different mindset at work there?

Companies do not patch working products. If it worked flawlessly out of the box for everyone, there would never be a patch, or a free enhancement. Enhancements are mainly for expansions, or the next version. Lucky us they were listening and enhanced while they patched the last time around. There is no assurance they will do that again.

	06-12-2002 17:12									#213
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I think the most damning aspect of this after sales patching mentality, is the effects on customers who may not have internet access. How are they supposed to fix a game that has serious problems out of the box (both CIV3 and PtW)?

	06-12-2002 17:44									#214
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, when I had to get a patch for civ2 (crashed out of box), Microprose sent me a disk with it on it. I'm sure that Infogrames would do the same.

	06-12-2002 17:59									#215
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Then the answer would be no. Not out of the box. Yes...with patching, but that's not the same thing. Different question. -=Vel=-

So we agreed.

MP was no good enough with 1.01f & 1.04f
1.14f patch came just 3 weeks after relase and fixed most of problems.

So there is realy nothing more to discuss.
Since all people who haven't bought the game unit now, will get "promised experince" (in most cases), since they will get the patches (even a casual gamers, since that MP, and word spreads quickly).

P.S.
Nothing new in gaming industry.



P.P.S.
Has this turned to flame war, just beacuse some think that 1.04f MP was "broken", while other think that it's just "not perfect"?

That's pretty much subjective thing, so I guess we shall stop discussiong about has game out of box had "broken" or "non-perfect" MP.

It's not important anyway, since NOBODY is playing out-of-box MP if there IS patch to download.

	06-12-2002 18:03									#216
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I think the most damning aspect of this after sales patching mentality, is the effects on customers who may not have internet access. How are they supposed to fix a game that has serious problems out of the box (both CIV3 and PtW)?

Good point for Civ3, but NOT good point for PtW.
Since if somebody wants to play Internet MP he NEEDS Internet access.

And only MP was "not perfect"/"broken" (choose your word),
with original PtW.

Only PtW SP doesn't need Interenet access, and it's workiong pretty well without patches.

Exept Hotseat, which did need 1.04f patch at least.

	06-12-2002 20:59									#217
	In Defense of Vel Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This is in response to "ItsNotYou"s post several spots up.

Criticizing Vel and a statement about PTW working out of the box, working for some people?

It'sNotYou - Name One Single Person On this Planet that Played One average Multiplayer Game through to completion with the product out of the box. Name one?

You can't. It didn't allow for it didn't work nada. As far as I'm concerned it still doesn't. My system requirements says something about a 28.8 modem. I have yet to read a post from anyone playing a successful game with anything other than broadband. How come "Broadband" isn't in the requirements for the game?

I'm with Vel and most of his points seem solid to me. The game should be playable out of the box. This game was marketed as "multiplayer", hell the title even suggests it. "PLAY THE WORLD".

This was a scam put on the civ fans as far as I'm concerned. Thankfully they've fixed it for the broadband people.

I'm Out like my hairline.

	06-12-2002 21:09									#218
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

NYE....I agree with you.

"companies do not patch working products."

was your phrasing, and

It is not, I don't believe, standard policy to patch a piece of software if there are no problems *with* that software.

was mine.

Both make the same point.

Where we differ in opinion is this:

I contend that the implication inherent IN those statements is as follows:

a) companies do not patch working products

so

b) if a company patches, then something must not be working

which means, in my mind that

c) Given that there are and have been patches for both PTW and Civ3 (and more than once at that), this leads me to the conclusion that the products were not working as described

But...this apparently is a sore subject, and to even bring it up seems to invite flames, so yes....I will happily simply agree to disagree on the point.

On a completely unrelated note though, I have noticed that since I began working on Candle'Bre, my opinions on the quality and completeness of games has changed remarkably.

This is the standard that *I expect* to be held to for Candle'Bre.

I WANT YOU to hold my feet to the fire if what I describe is not what you get.

And on another unrelated note....this is gonna sound really odd, but....since I've been working on CB (and playing an active role in creating all the models for the game), I find myself creating models for....pretty much everything.

Last night, after making my last post, and before drifting off to sleep, I created a "degrees of brokenness" model, which looks something like this (for quantifying "how broke is broke."):

(Weight of Feature Importance in a given release) * (estimated # users impacted by non-functional or damaged feature/total user base)

Such that, say...if Coastal Fortresses aren't working right, but the main thrust of the patch or expansion is MP, then it might carry a weight of 0.02, but other features (MP for example), might be weighted as high as 0.75, which would provide at least a guide for the relative importance of stuff, and for prioritization.

-=Vel=-

PS: Candle'Bre enhancement packs will be free, btw. Fate card expansions, scenario packs....stuff like that....free. Patches issued to expand the functionality of the game.

	06-12-2002 22:24									#219
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm Well, when I had to get a patch for civ2 (crashed out of box), Microprose sent me a disk with it on it. I'm sure that Infogrames would do the same.

That may work for one patch, but there were 4 patches for Civ3.

quote: Originally posted by player 1 Good point for Civ3, but NOT good point for PtW. Since if somebody wants to play Internet MP he NEEDS Internet access.

Thats true

quote: And only MP was "not perfect"/"broken" (choose your word), with original PtW.

But its clearly advertised as MP and thats what most people bought it for. AFAIK, even with the patch it's really only for MP for broadband users. If that was a requirement for MP it should have said so. Some people would have been annoyed, but at least they would have known what they were buying.

Look at the minimum hardware specs for CIV3.

IBM PC or 100% compatible computer
Pentium II-300 MHz or faster processor
Windows 95, 98, ME, 2000, or XP
32 MB RAM
500 MB available hard drive space
4X or faster CD-ROM drive
SVGA video card (capable of 1024x768x16-bit color) *
Windows 95 or 98 compatible sound card*

Is there anyone who thinks this game could really be played and enjoyed with a machine like this?

What this really seems to be is a question of 'truth in advertising'.

	06-12-2002 22:38									#220
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have 3 sets of disks for Master of Magic patches straight form Microprose. In those days registering your tiltes was actually worth something.

	06-12-2002 22:40									#221
	Re: In Defense of Vel Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by BottleOfPills It'sNotYou - Name One Single Person On this Planet that Played One average Multiplayer Game through to completion with the product out of the box. Name one?

I did. NYE did. As did a few people I could name.

	06-12-2002 22:43									#222
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

As far as it working modems, I played PBEM games against people using modems. Last time I checked we were in fact playing a non-broadband MP game.

	07-12-2002 01:38									#223
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx If the product works for some, but not for others, then I would say the product is....broken.

Fine, but in that case nearly all games are broken. Even something like Civ2, that works perfectly on every computer I have, does not work on some that have sufficient system reqs. If the requirement for a non-broken game is that it works on 100% of supposedly compliant systems... I would say that CB is pretty likely to be broken when it comes out.

	07-12-2002 02:03									#224
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Given the state of the industry, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to hear that most of the games out there are broken.

If it is true that CB is broken in *any* way, even tho we'll be GIVING the game away, don't kid yourself....we'll catch every bit as much hell for each problem as the companies that charge sixty bucks for a game. Probably even moreso, now that I have committed an act of digital blasphemy by stating that a company not in charge of its own deadlines and pushed for time, released an unfinished product. (not surprisingly, under those conditions), but as I said earlier....I *expect* to be held accountable. I expect to be held to that kind of standard. If I say it ain't broke and it is, then I want people to let me have it with both barrels.

And....they will.

-=Vel=-

	07-12-2002 02:07									#225
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Look at the minimum hardware specs for CIV3. IBM PC or 100% compatible computer Pentium II-300 MHz or faster processor Windows 95, 98, ME, 2000, or XP 32 MB RAM 500 MB available hard drive space 4X or faster CD-ROM drive SVGA video card (capable of 1024x768x16-bit color) * Windows 95 or 98 compatible sound card* Is there anyone who thinks this game could really be played and enjoyed with a machine like this? What this really seems to be is a question of 'truth in advertising'.

Hey!

My machine is almost EXACTLY like that (its 333Mhz Celeron with 64MB of RAM).

And it plays perfectly well (if you don't use maps greater then standard or more then 8 players).

Although loading a game can take some time (1-2 minutes) in modern era.

And, it's key to turn OFF the music, since otherwise it's unplayable. (MP3 decoding slowsgame down)

	07-12-2002 02:11									#226
	Suffering from ads?

To all:

Come on people.

It's just stupid to spend all time discussing about was out-of-box PtW MP "broken" or "not perfect".

I mean it not realy important anymore (we have the patches).
And, you are all smart people, so I don't see why would you waste your time on such kind of discussion.


I mean, it's thing of preference.
(broken VS not perfect)

Noone could convince anyone in the opposite.

	07-12-2002 02:14									#227
	Got spare money?

Hmmm.....forgive me for saying so, Player1, but the situation you just described does not sound like it's "plays perfectly well" to me.

Rather, it sounds like it plays.....contingent on disabling game features (no music, no more than 8 players, standard maps only).

-=Vel=-

	07-12-2002 02:18									#228
	Tired of ads?

I agree with Vel... PTW was a flawed product at shipment, and the greatest selling point was also the most glaring deficiency.

That said, I think the horse is dead, gentlemen. Let's stop beating the old nag and let it rot in peace, shall we?

	07-12-2002 02:32									#229
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

dp

	07-12-2002 02:33									#230
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Hmmm.....forgive me for saying so, Player1, but the situation you just described does not sound like it's "plays perfectly well" to me. Rather, it sounds like it plays.....contingent on disabling game features (no music, no more than 8 players, standard maps only). -=Vel=-

It does say that it's MINIMAL needed conf. NOT the optimal one.

You are SUPPOSED to have better conf. in order to get OPTIMAL preformance.

Now, I could play at huge maps with more players, and it WOULD work, but it would be way to SLOW.


And if they have just written higher minimal conf. that would be simple unture, and I would have not have Civ3, which I am playing now (and ejoying).

MINIMAL is suppsed to be playable and NOT optimal.

And it plays almost optimal to me if I take out music and play smaller maps.

	07-12-2002 02:36									#231
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by FNBrown I agree with Vel... PTW was a flawed product at shipment, and the greatest selling point was also the most glaring deficiency. That said, I think the horse is dead, gentlemen. Let's stop beating the old nag and let it rot in peace, shall we?

OK!
Was MP broken in out-of-box PtW or not is really not much important anyway.

Since we do have patches.

	07-12-2002 07:50									#232
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by FNBrown I agree with Vel... PTW was a flawed product at shipment, and the greatest selling point was also the most glaring deficiency. That said, I think the horse is dead, gentlemen. Let's stop beating the old nag and let it rot in peace, shall we?

What I WANT is a game that is a worthy succesor to Civ 2. Even after five patches (more to come?) for Civ 3 and PTW combined, we do not have it.

	07-12-2002 08:10									#233
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I don't know how long Infogames will continue to get away with it - forget what the fanboys here say - to knowingly sell a defective product is illegal in most Western countries.

Just wait until some influential person's Little Johny buys this crud and finds out it doesn't deliver what's stated on the box.............oh dear for Infogames

	07-12-2002 08:35									#234
	Put an end to popups!

Except that according to the EULA they didn't sell a product. They gave you a limited license. In the USA and Canada (I don't know about other jurisdictions), installing it makes you subject to the clauses, including the big one that says you agree not to sue them for more than the retail price of PTW even if they knew there was something wrong with it. What lawyer is going to take that case? There's no money in it.

	07-12-2002 08:40									#235
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm Except that according to the EULA they didn't sell a product. They gave you a limited license. In the USA and Canada (I don't know about other jurisdictions), installing it makes you subject to the clauses, including the big one that says you agree not to sue them for more than the retail price of PTW even if they knew there was something wrong with it. What lawyer is going to take that case? There's no money in it.

We're talking about countries with decent standards of consumer protection, not the U.S.

And that licence thingy? They can wipe their arse with it. Blanket disclaimers like that never stand up in court.

	07-12-2002 10:05									#236
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There is a news item here on 'poly that would suggest that there *is* some importance to a piece of software's out-of-box status:

It appears the problem in New Zealand (and Australia) is that it does not pass consumer standards in its current out-of-the-box status, that is to say, the box is false advertising! So most shops will have a "cleaner" version in shops at about mid-January.

(news item references Civ3 - PTW)

-=Vel=-

	07-12-2002 12:41									#237
	Full PM-box? Change here!

yeah? And how many times has Microsoft been prosecuted?

	07-12-2002 12:56									#238
	Increase Your PM Length

Oh, for Christ's sakes Vel! That was a user writing a bit on his getting the game.

Give me a king sized break. Show me the interdictions of computer industry products. Please.

	07-12-2002 13:03									#239
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

You miss the point - the industry was cut a lot of slack in its early years.

But its no longer possible to justify releasing products in the defective condition of PTW onto the market. Worse still, and this where they run into real legal problems, they did it knowingly.

But their lawyers would have briefed them about that.

	07-12-2002 13:21									#240
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Give me a source please, Mr. Blowhard.

I hardly think they would start with a game that has a patch on line to fix problems.

Try backing it up, Horsie. Till then you are talking out the wrong end of your beast.