20-11-2002 13:44									#1
	Overcoming Social Anxiety Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

(I hope I don't regret posting this tomorrow )

For as long as I can remember, I've always had some intense anxiety in social situations or anticipation of social situations. I know it's normal to have it to some degree, but I think it went beyond shyness.

For the past couple of years the major effects of this have been treated as a sideeffect from some other medication I was on, only I'm not on medication these days. So I don't get that benefit anymore.

So now, I've essentially become anti-social once again to some extreme points.

I don't, ever, want to call anyone on the phone. I haven't done this in a LONG time and I always get someone else to call if possible. I also instantly dread when the phone rings because I think someone might want to talk to me.

At school I listen to music almost all the time when I'm not in a lecture so as to make me harder to approach to talk to. It's especially bad when I see someone I know that might try to strike up a conversation at a bus stop or something. I'll just avoid eye contact and hope that they don't come talk to me. And if they do come talk to me, I can't wait till it's overwith and it feels like punishment.

When my friends ask me to go out and do something I'll always think up some excuse and not go anywhere.

Even online in instant messaging, I'll almost NEVER message someone first. Almost always, they have to be the one to message me if we're going to talk. I always feel like I'm imposing or something if I message someone. After I'm messaged though, I'm usually okay. And on online forums too, I have no problems there...or with family in person either.

So...
What I'm looking for is some ways to try to get over this, because it's really tearing me up these days. I'm in college for christsake, I should be out enjoying myself.

Medication is simply not an option, I don't want to deal with that stuff anymore - And I don't want to go see another shrink.

So, how can I get back a normal life? I figure on the internet on a forum like this there'll be other people who have been through or are going through this too, so it doesn't hurt I guess...

I know someone will just mention forcing myself to just go out and do stuff a lot -- I've tried that before and all it accomplishes is a dreadful period where I can't wait to get it overwith. If it's something as simple as a houseparty on friday night and I find out on monday, it'd be in the back of my mind all week dreading it. So I don't think that's really an option either.

	20-11-2002 13:48									#2
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I think we're all like that to a certain extent. At least, I am. That phone thing is so me.

Having said that, I have absolutely no idea how to change it.

	20-11-2002 13:53									#3
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I wouldn't worry about that Ashie, I was (and still am) like that to large extent as well. I think the best solution in this case is to do nothing, and let fate take it's proper course. Everything will work out Ashie, no need for medication or anything of that sort. Just take it nice and easy.

	20-11-2002 14:03									#4
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First, I applaud you for not seeking to go back on medication right away.

As far as you problem, I hate to tell you this but there are no easy answers to it. No easy ones, but there is a simple one. Identify actions you are taking that is hindering your social life. Then stop them. Force yourself to change. Asher, does reason control you to an extent that you can choose your own actions? If so, willfully choose to start calling people. Willfully choose to go up and talk to people. Willfully choose to join student organizations and meet people in them. Willfully choose to go out and do stuff with friends. Making those hard choices is the only way. If you can't control your own actions though, going on medication/seeing a therapist may be the only option.

I used to be somewhat like you. But all the progress I have made has been because I decided to step forth and take decisive action, and force myself to do stuff. It isn't eassy, and I still have to struggle sometime, but forcing yourself is the only way anything gets done.

	20-11-2002 14:05									#5
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" I think the best solution in this case is to do nothing, and let fate take it's proper course."

Monkspider and I posted at the same time. I strongly disagree with Monkspider. If you do nothing, nothing will get done and no progress will be made. You can not trust in some omnipotent fate, you can only trust in yourself to make your own fate.

	20-11-2002 14:14									#6
	Remove this text

Shi, I simply feel that things will work themselves out in due time. The best cure for this condition I have found is time. Perhaps if Ashie is an Emily Dickinson type ten years from now, we would need to worry. You know I love ya Ashie, I just don't think there is really any need for concern at this point.
Following some of Shi's advice may be wise if you are serious about attempting to mitigate things immediately But I hold to my original advice of allowing the unseen hand of time to work things out naturally for you.

	20-11-2002 14:21									#7
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Monkspider, why is the cat in your avatar wearing mascara?

	20-11-2002 14:31									#8
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"But I hold to my original advice of allowing the unseen hand of time to work things out naturally for you."

What unseen hand is this? Asher is an atheist, and though I think it would be great if he were to become Christian, I don't see why an atheist would place his trust in unseen hands. There is no guarantee anything will work out for you. In fact, if one continue to not seek out friends and not do things with friens you have, I think we can safely predict things won't get better for that person. In any case, Asher is in college now and if he waits college may be over before things get better(if they do), and college is one of the times when you have the most opportunity to have a good time. But Monkspider said it best, Asher.

"Following some of Shi's advice may be wise if you are serious about attempting to mitigate things immediately "

If you are serious about changing your condition, start making willful decisions to improve your social life.

	20-11-2002 14:31									#9
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Noooooo! Not Nermal!

	20-11-2002 14:44									#10
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If I can chime in though I'm not a regular, I had pretty severe social anxiety issues in my mid-teens through my early 20's, and came from a family tradition which strongly stigmatized medication and counseling, so I can share how I gradually got over it au natural. I also was (and am) an atheist, so I know how it is in the context of not having "blessed assurance" to rely upon.

#1. I know exactly what you mean about dreading upcoming social interactions, and I suggest you don't force yourself to pre-schedule anything social. The only exception is honoring family and important friend commitments (birthdays, holidays).

#2. On the other hand, when the occasion presents itself, don't just automatically say 'no' to a spur of the moment chance to do something. Even years later and very well socialized, my first response to any social offer is and likely always will be to find a half dozen excellent reasons for turning it down. Sometimes I do have to just say yes and trust that it will not be horrible. It is often enjoyable, almost never really sucks, and it has never, ever been as bad as my fears.

#3. I know the phone thing, too. My first job after college had me on the phone with 10 authors a day, and you can imagine how pleasant that was (not!). Talk to family on the phone; it helps, and it keeps you in touch with them.

#4. Believe it or not, there's a couple upsides. The biggest problem people have early in college is distraction, and when that's not an issue you can genuinely kick some ass. I don't recommend studying your head off as a substitute for a social life, but if you do something constructive with the time you'll help defuse the frustration, which tends to cycle back into the problem. Also, you're going to be one of the few people wandering around campus without a constant, ready come-on for anyone with a pulse, and the more thoughtful members of whatever sex does it for you are going to notice that -- this is an excellent self-selection mechanism for winnowing out a lot of the chaff.

#5. Don't spend all your time thinking of ways of either evading or courting this "condition" (like, say, thinking of it as a condition at all). 90% of happiness is added value to regularly scheduled activity -- a spinoff and not an event in itself. Do the things you like doing and you'll gradually find people with shared interests who won't be so painful to talk to. I know, it sounds pat, but it worked for me as directly and obviously as that.

#6. Having a close friend who kinda understands and kicks you in the ass every once in a while helps too. Don't get overly serious -- this *is* a very common reaction to early adulthood, especially for intelligent people, and it does fade out with time.

Last edited by Kepler on 20-11-2002 at 14:55

	20-11-2002 15:17									#11
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Walking around stark naked at school. That fixes your condition really fast.

The best way to over come fears and phobias is to do things that will lead to these fears and phobias. For example if you don't want to call people on the phone, pick up the phone now and call a friend.

It's not easy, but that's the best way.

	20-11-2002 15:22									#12
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the only thing i hate is being in a social situation where i dont know anyone...and i have to make that connection...other than that its all good, unless they are female...that just compounds everything

	20-11-2002 15:51									#13
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That's when you should be completely naked.

	20-11-2002 17:24									#14
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My strategy is to work myself slowly into the position of being comfortable with social interactions. Which basically means I go out and do stuff with friends, and avoid stuff I don't really enjoy doing, like talking on the phone etc. Which by surprising coincidence is a way I maximize my enjoyment of social interactions.

Having a job helped me too. Before that, I was really painfully shy. I could barely mumble a "hello" to strangers. But working, being in contact with strangers as part of my everyday life helped aleviate this to a certain extent.

Despite popular belief, being naked in public really doesn't help with social interactions. Not desirable social interactions at any rate.

	20-11-2002 17:35									#15
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I think your case is probably hopeless - sorry.

	20-11-2002 18:05									#16
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Just try to relax and put the anxieties aside.

By the way, it's called asperger's syndrome.

	20-11-2002 18:54									#17
	my depression and social anxiety are the same thing more or less Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Asher (I hope I don't regret posting this tomorrow

this is like how i am too. i've given up on classifying my sickness, i can pretty much fit anything on different days from bipolar type 1(i think it's this one), various personality disorders, general anxiety disorder, double depression, major depressive disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, obessive-complusive disorder, etc. all i know is i'm very dynamic. my dread level(along with mood, energy, appetite, etc) goes up and down totally randomly. i only manage to do social things when it's non-existant(which is usually a few hrs a day if i'm lucky). my life has become a wreck the last few yrs from being someone that seemed to have a very bright future in middle school and the first 2 years of high school to someone who does nothing(not because i'm lazy, i just can't handle anything substantial).

i've tried everything i can think of. trying some new quick fix(only eat certain foods, working out, forcing myself to socialize, etc) usually just make my problems that much worse. i've also had 2 professional interventions to 2 different hospital psych wards. i thought i was going to die from fear/shame when they took me to the hospital via ambulance the first time around(i was also probably psychotic). the more effort i seem to put forth the more i'm slapped violently back down. problem is i had only so much effort to give before i gave up(took a few yrs to wear me down). now that i don't put effort into anything i don't experience as much pain as before, but i'm in a pretty sad shape. i just try to stay comfortable - books, music, computer games, etc help me escape my prison and forget myself for a while.

i really have no advice. nothing has really helped me in the long run. there seem to be temporary fixes, meds helped me for a while(with time the meds stopped working though), the trips to hospital made me almost normal for a week or so, but nothing else has had a big effect. all i know is deep down i feel as if i can hold out i have a chance(i've help like this since i was a little kid though). the only other thing i think might help me is electroshock therapy(aka ect), but that's not something i really want to do(i have a feeling i will have to though, and maybe soon). of course there is always suicide, but i'm not really suicidal as in wanting to do it, but more just having it haunt my mind daily. i'd try ect before suicide probably.

i watched a very good documentary on hbo and i recommend you see it. dead blue surviving depression
it seems to be hbo every few weeks(usually late at night/early morning). it has interviews with "60 minutes" correspondent mike wallace, psychologist martha manning, and author william styron. i doubt it will cure any of your ailments but it has a message of hope, and it's very well produced. the main thing though is that it struck me as the only depression video i've ever seen which is 100% dead on. the people in the video knew exactly what i'm going through, and described more eloquently than i thought possible. good luck!

	20-11-2002 19:11									#18
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I think this sort of thing is becoming increasing common with the perfectly adequate alternative socializing available online. Asher seems quite intelligent and willing to make changes, so I'll offer the following True Story.
------------------
My wife has tendencies like yours, Asher. Any plans made days (even hours) in advance, no matter how non-threatening, seemed to result in migraines or other symptoms manifesting shortly before the appointed activity -- even just minor stuff, things she/we liked to do with close friends.

She always felt bad about it and wanted to change (a key factor imho), so we asked a couple close friends to take a different approach -- which was to avoid the advance planning of activities. This produced a situation where friends would just ask, seemingly on the spur of the moment, if we'd like to come over for dinner, or go to a party, or play bridge, whatever. Please note there were definite ground rules on what was permissible.

This was pretty successful, and over the past 10 years or so, her anxiety level has dropped dramatically. The artifice of the "unplanned plan" is no longer needed and we have a low-key but remarkably normal social life.
-----------------
I definitely recommend that you attack this one bit at a time, Asher. Define the problem, choose an area for imporovement, and develop a gameplan. Make an agreement with yourself to do this One Thing and move on from there.

You can do this, Asher. Just don't try to do it all at once.

	20-11-2002 19:43									#19
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Have you tried alcohol?

	20-11-2002 20:27									#20
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I am very similar, I can't tell you what will work because I haven't found anything myself. I do know that it doesn't get easier as you get older.

You need to find something to do that you enjoy, force yourself to do it for a while until it becomes not-uncomfortable. You have a much better opportunity to do things while in university. Once you are done, and have a job the field of potential friends and activities seem to contract. Maybe it's just because I work for a small company.

I started playing badminton a few years ago, and had problems getting myself to go for the first few months. But now it's something I look foreward to doing.

Last year I forced myself to take ballroom dancing, I had a hell of a time making myself do that, so I didn't go back this year.

You have to pick your battles, and go slowly.

	20-11-2002 20:32									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

Asher-

I used to be pretty shy myself, and I realise your problem goes beyond shyness, but perhaps some of the same solutions can be applied.

Perhaps it is some kind of fear of the unknown you are experiencing. The more you avoid social situations, the harder it will get for you to pluck up the courage to communicate with others. If you put yourself in social situations more often, you will gradually become more confident in your social skills. It seems to me that perhaps you have been isolating yourself for so long that your initial shyness has degenerated into an illogical paranoia.

I think the best thing you can do for yourself is to make an effort to be more social. It might be hard at first, but the more you do it, the easier it will get.

Hope this helps.

	20-11-2002 20:51									#22
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Just imagine a whole bunch of Linux zealots jeering at you for failing to do things, you'll get all worked up and charge ahead.

	20-11-2002 21:01									#23
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I just forced myself to go out and do things with people. I know that's not a solution you want to hear, but that's what eventually worked for me, even though it did suck a bit at first. I still have problems calling people on the phone, but (even though I might procrastinate a bit when I have to call somebody) eventually I just grin & bear it and call whoever I'm supposed to call. You won't get over this by doing nothing about it, and I don't recommend meds unless your condition is so severe that you just can't function anymore (which I assume is not the case).

	20-11-2002 21:47									#24
	Re: my depression and social anxiety are the same thing more or less Got spare money?

Thanks for the great replies everyone, I'll try to respond to more of them later today when I get back from my classes.

quote: Originally posted by pg this is like how i am too. i've given up on classifying my sickness, i can pretty much fit anything on different days from bipolar type 1(i think it's this one), various personality disorders, general anxiety disorder, double depression, major depressive disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, obessive-complusive disorder, etc. all i know is i'm very dynamic. my dread level(along with mood, energy, appetite, etc) goes up and down totally randomly.

This so, so, so familiar to me.
I was actually (mis?)diagnosed with being moderately bipolar a long time ago too, which is why I was on medication to begin with. I'm starting to wonder if it had more to do with Asperger's syndrome, social anxiety disorder, or something along those lines...

quote: i watched a very good documentary on hbo and i recommend you see it. dead blue surviving depression it seems to be hbo every few weeks(usually late at night/early morning). it has interviews with "60 minutes" correspondent mike wallace, psychologist martha manning, and author william styron. i doubt it will cure any of your ailments but it has a message of hope, and it's very well produced. the main thing though is that it struck me as the only depression video i've ever seen which is 100% dead on. the people in the video knew exactly what i'm going through, and described more eloquently than i thought possible. good luck!

Thanks, I'll try to check that out.

	20-11-2002 22:02									#25
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I have some intensely anti-social moments, but I think that's only natural for most people. In fact, anyone who needs to be around people and socializing non-stop probably has as much a disorder as those with social anxiety.

I have always been the kind of person who needs a lot of alone time. Even when I was a kid, I would often prefer to shut myself in my room and be alone with my imagination and toys than playing in groups. Today I am the same way. While I socialize easily and on a regular basis, I also spend a lot of time alone in my room. If I am not able to do this, I get very cranky. Solitude can be a wonderful thing.

I think one of the problems I've had in establishing romantic relationships is that the guys I've dated have not understood this and didn't like it. Lots of people have the notion that a love interest is someone you need to be around as much as possible. Nooooooo thank you. I can love a person without seeing them every day, and I am deathly afraid of codependency.

Asher, you can always PM when I'm online, I don't mind. If I'm busy, I'll say so. I tell red_jon to buzz off all the time.

	20-11-2002 22:24									#26
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Disclaimer

I am not qualified to give advise on this matter, as I have never had that problem. Yet, my sister is the same way, and I have always been really close to her. I was never able to help her, though, because I am just too strong-willed to do so. Also, if you have some mental illness maybe advice is not the best, and don't ditch your medication just because you think you should, let you doctor decide that. My sister ditched her, and then she ostrasized half the family. It sucks.

My advice:

First, you need to love yourself. Spoil yourself and know you deserve it. This will help you be comfortable being alone. I find it good to remind yourself that being alone should not mean that you are lonely.

Second, take walks by yourself. Go to parks, malls, etc... By yourself (<-- that is very important). Observe others when you go. Watch how they interact. Notice how many other people are out...alone. Meditate.

Third, initiate conversations. When you are finally comfortable with yourself, and you look forward to those walks were you can clear your head. When you smile every time you see a couple in love, a child playing, or an old man having trouble opening a door at some shop (I know it's mean, but it's funny), talk to others. It doesn't have to be much. Open the door for the old man, say "You need some help?" Anything, just talk (just not to yourself, and don't offer the little kids candy... the always run away screaming?)

Finally, never turn down an opportunity. This should probably be first, but in some situations it might be last. Your friends want to do things with you because they are comfortable around you, don't be a fool and turn them away, or they may just stop calling one day. Just, convince yourself that you are going to have fun today, take a shot of Wild Turkey, and HAVE FUN, DAMN IT! Quit beating around the bush. It's not about fears, it's not about wants, it's about you letting yourself get pushed around by petty indecisions. Just stop it.

See. I thought I would be too harsh. I think it is good that you want to change. My AA class (my wife) says that admitting you have a problem is the first step in fixing it. Doing nothing is a bad idea.

What ever you do, get this problem fixed before you graduate. It will be hard to get far in the buisness world without being social. In fact, I know ppl who are only social, and don't do anything that resembles work, yet still manage to get promoted. Go figure.

	20-11-2002 22:45									#27
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oh f*ck, you just described me in many ways, does that make me mentally ill? (well, moreso?)

or worse, does that make me, canadian?

	20-11-2002 23:51									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I can relate to much of the social aspect of your life you shamelessly outlined. I am hardly ever the one to initiate conversation with others, nor do I willingly accept any invitation to any social gathering. I require either plenty of alcohol or physical force to get me anywhere. I try to think that when I do go out I enjoy myself, but usually after a night of partying or calm socializing I will nitpick my way through every word and event, looking for anything negative I may have said or done.

Often my academic life suffers from this as I spend so much time musing over these affairs that I begin to lose concentration and self-esteem. An ugly downward spiral ensues and usually bottoms out in valleys so low I can't even see the base of the mountain I fell from. From there on in it's a hard struggle as I have to clamber my way back to the summit.

What interests me is that I am able to do things that would scare the living wits out of most people but can't muster up the courage to even go up and speak with a stranger. I've come within a few meters of bears (not the cage variety) and felt only awe as my understanding of their behaviour faught back any rush of fear; I was slightly nervous, but not sh*tting myself. Only when my intentions are business-related (i.e. seeking specific information) will I have little to no trouble approaching people I don't know.

I'm avoiding medication as much as possible because I believe the cause of most of this anxiety is a result of elevated hormone levels. I'm a young adult (21) and can remember suffering no such symptoms as a child. In fact, it's my social ability as a child and a tween that has brought me most of the friends who surround me today.

Be wary of medication. I remember going in to describe my problem to my GP. Within ten minutes of my explanation he was ready to prescribe me a slurry of brain medicine. I was appalled at the fact that a doctor could so quickly and readily fork over potent chemicals which affect the body's most important organ (when looking at what makes you function, and what makes you human) while any other ailment would have required more extensive testing before even a whisper of medication was mentioned. If you're ever feeling so down that well, you think the unthinkable, THEN you should seek medical help.

I have no real advice to give you, but from my experiences, knowing that someone else suffers from the same phobia can be helpful. Just know that most but the very mentally ill get out of this sooner than they would like to think. Follow the advice some here have offered and you may be out of it sooner.

- Maj

	21-11-2002 00:11									#29
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I have the phone thing too, I just despise using a phone, especially if you're calling someone you do not know (like a helpline or something). Main thing about me is that I am very visual and as such cannot really pick up voice clues but rather rely on body language alot.

Back in my depressed stage I used to have trouble in face-to-face meetings, just because I felt inadequate, and was quite sure that other people would find about as intresting as dishwater.

I changed my circumstances (different course, different university, different housemates, more time in the gym etc.), and now I am completely happy with myself. This also helps in the whole social interaction thing. If you're confident about yourself, you are more likely to get on better with other people (don't overdo the confidence thing though, arrogance doesn't suit most people).

My advice would be to see why you're having trouble, if there's anything that is really bringing you down, making you doubt yourself, and then go and fix it. I would never consider medication to be a good option, you are then not really confronting the underlying problems, but rather masking the symptoms.

	21-11-2002 00:27									#30
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I dont' have time to go through with this. But I have the same or similar problem. I haven't been diagnosed with it though. I get too shy around people. Once I get to know them I can talk to them. But talking to strangers is near impossible for me.