23-11-2002 07:44									#1
	Wonder project Enter the AD-FREE zone

Okay as we all know, or opponent is a living breathing enemy that can think for itself, and its object is to win.

Much like us.

We may want certain kinds of wonders because we are aware of how great they are and crucial it is to start out with them

So do they.

So as a result, we may have to think about planning a priority list of wonders since, well unless we are kicking their ass and they are totally incapable village idiots, we may lose out on some of wonder races. It would be a big blow for us if we lost out on wonder races (BAD) and we had no wonder to switch to (EVEN WORSE). So it would be a good idea to mentally distance ourselves from some GOOD wonders in attempt to let rest of them bicker and fight over it while we build with 100% certainty, the wonder we want. Which wonder race should we participate in the ancient era? Devoting effort in the wonder race is time consuming and debilitating on the economy, but if you can successfuly beat others, oh boy ..

	24-11-2002 01:21									#2
	Tired of ads?

Great Library is #1.
Pyramids is #2.

That's all we have to worry about until the Middle Ages.

GL will be crucial to us...

With it, we can save a LOT of money that we would be using researching techs. That money can be use to upgrade our Siphais... BAM. We'll be able to get half of the money we need for upgrading from building the GL. GL should definitely be one of our priorities.

	24-11-2002 05:14									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Im moving a bit too ahead but we should also consider moving leo up the priority list. This discussion could be left when time comes.

	24-11-2002 15:01									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The question is also: when do we stop expanding and start building a wonder?

	24-11-2002 23:38									#5
	Remove this text

My idea of stopping for expansion is when we hit something...

(coast, enemy border, etc.)

	25-11-2002 02:07									#6
	Got spare money?

We should probably use a couple of our cities to start on them early, while the rest of the cities concentrate on expanding our empire. Keep in mind, all the players will be human, so the race to wonders is going to be VERY intense. I'm sure Legoland will be trying to make a bee-line straight for GL.

	25-11-2002 03:10									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Great Library, at any cost. Start a Palace prebuild somewhere for the Library, in a high-shield area.

While it'd be easier if we were Commercial (since we'd have Alphabet, which is on the Literature beeline)... we're still a Scientific civ, so we could catch up. And, of course, there's the off chance that we'll get a leader from some early warfare (or just pop the advances from a hut, or trade for the advances).

Once in the Middle Ages, beeline for MilTrad. Invention, with Leo's, is on that beeline. Let someone else research the Monotheism branch for us. (Actually, we'll likely get Monotheism on entering the Middle Ages...)

Edit: What civ is Legoland playing again?

	25-11-2002 03:19									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No definitive civ for Legoland as of yet, from what I'm aware...

We're the Ottomans, GS is Carthage, Role-Play is Spain, GoW is Celts... beyond that, I dunno. Those might not even be right, so go easy on me.

But I do agree with GL... that will be a massive benefit to us, allowing us to save incredible amounts of cash for later usage.

	25-11-2002 03:28									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Just hope that the Legolanders choose a civ that is neither Scientific nor Commercial (which starts with Alphabet). Americans, perhaps?

	25-11-2002 03:29									#10
	Put an end to popups!

Someone might conduct a little espionage and see what civ they're thinking about... they might reveal some info in their thread in the main forum.

I've been too busy and bored to go into other teams' threads... too long and bloated for my liking.

	25-11-2002 03:35									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Read through their most recent thread-- nothing.

Did a search under their old name, and found this:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...hlight=Builders

It seems that their sentiment was toward Carthage or Egypt...

	25-11-2002 03:36									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, Carthage was already picked (by two teams, no less), so I doubt they'll be going for them. My best bets are Egypt and Greece.

	25-11-2002 05:06									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I personally go for the Oracle in many of my PTW games. Mainly for the reason it can allow cities to grow longer without unhappiness (esp. if we have cities on rivers with decent terrain and/or we have a lack of lux). Hanging Gardens is essentially a weaker version of the Oracle. So I'd only build if others are taken.

	25-11-2002 09:41									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Roleplay gave up carthage to become Spain.

Legoland is now Carthage. Brace yourself.

	25-11-2002 09:44									#15
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Trip Someone might conduct a little espionage and see what civ they're thinking about... they might reveal some info in their thread in the main forum. I've been too busy and bored to go into other teams' threads... too long and bloated for my liking.

That would be me, I have been gathering as much info as I could from what is there to collect on the public forum. Nothing much significant but here are the other team's civ:

Roleplay= Spain
Legoland = Carthage
GoW = Celts
GoS = ? (highly likely Korea or Viking)

This complicates our wonder strategy. Both Roleplay and Legoland can beeline to Literature quicker than we can. Also, notice Legoland has Mansonry (industrial) as well. Legoland is a huge threat to our Wonder project. In worst case scenario, Legoland may pursue for Pyramid and Roleplay for Great Library. We will face two competitor that will focus its intention for those wonders. We will simply not be able to proceed with both project if that is the case. Do not discuss about ownership of wonder in the public forum. We don't want them to know of this little situation.

	25-11-2002 09:57									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm not sure if Legoland is Carthage...
IIRC, Gathering Storm and Roleplay both wanted Carthage, but Roleplay conceded and took up Spain. I thought that GS had Carthage then, but I guess I'm not sure...

We'll have to make our strongest city the new harbor for building the Great Library. Early on before our wars start, that must be our priority... if we can get ahead of Legoland (or any other civ) on it, then we'll be in a very good position. However, like I said, we must start on it (it, as in another high-cost project, then switch over when the time is right) from very near to the beginning of the game, otherwise we'll lose the race for it.

	25-11-2002 10:21									#17
	Put an end to popups!

GS is currently playing a GS member only PBEM game (according to them) that would determine their civ choice. Currently form what I hear Korean AI is totally winning over everyone. Arnelos suggested they be Vikings and this has turned some heads so We are not sure if they will be Vikings, Koreans (if they win) or something else.

With no one claiming Carthage, Legoland took the civ.

Either way, competition for these two wonder will be intense. Realisitically speaking, we may only get one. That is still great considering there is five teams (possibly +2 more), there is only 2 wonders that will be chased.

We may be able to get Colossus much easier. It has a long lifespan and has great attribute. I think competition for colossus will be far less than pyramid and Great Library. We could use the Colossus as fail safe wonder but that would require us to start the Pyramid on coastal city.

Last edited by Zero on 25-11-2002 at 10:27

	25-11-2002 19:27									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think trying to get GWs, especially popular ones, is a waste of time. Taking one of our early cities out of production to build some wonder will really hamper our expansion and defense and the benefit won't be that great, IMO.

	25-11-2002 20:19									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

IMO, these are the best wonders in the game in my personal order:

Pyramids-saves money, quicker settlers, cumumlative benefits from rapidly growing cities.
Great Library-use to catch up or to stay even
Sun Tzu's
Leonardo's
Sistine Chapple
Adam Smith's
Magellan's
Theory of Evolution
Hoover Damn
Universal Sufferage
The Internet

My strategy to get the early GW's is the following:
If I start in a high shield area (Capital produces 10+ at size 6) then my capital will produce three settlers, and start the pyramids. Otherwise, my capital only produces two settlers, then starts.

As soon as the Pyramid is done, I may build the temple and one more defensive unit in the capital, and then start the Great Library.

After these are built, I start choosing my highest production city to build the next important wonder ASAP.

Cities that aren't building wonders will generally build a couple military units (best attack available) in between one or two improvements.

I generally build early cities other than my capital as such:

Capital:
Warrior, Warrior, Settler, Warrior, Warrior, Settler, Spearman, Wonder, Temple, Spearman, Wonder, etc...

Other Cities:
Warrior, Worker, Archer, Settler, Spearman, Settler, Temple, Settler, Archer, etc...

Works like a charm IMO.

I avoid early wars, unless it's absolutely unavoidable, but I do build up an excellent infrastructure and a decent defense. Around the time I've completed the Pyramids, I usually have a good force of Archers and warriors. It would be lovely to have a horde of horseman, but that generally wont happen until towards the end of building the Great Library.

This is what works best for me.

	26-11-2002 03:05									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Any wonder w/o expiration date is just a gem, but pyramid is so great cause it really boosts your growth. What punkbass2000 said holds some truth in it, but I can't see myself miss out on the pyramid... It's just too good to not give a try. However, we shouldn't hurt ourselves reaching for a wonder that has an odd of like million to one for us to get. Pyramid shouldn't be too bad if we focus our intention on it. So far the only civ that competes against us is Legoland. I think we may have a chance for this one, but I am not too sure about the Great Library. It is a great wonder and I can't imagine how great it would be for us to have. We will definitely try to get this one, but we should be prepared to let this one go.

	26-11-2002 03:09									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This is my attempt at trying to tell the future...

If Legoland is in anyway concious of plans for these two wonders, they will be very much aware that we start out with Mansonry, which means they may have a chance of losing the wonder to us. They also know that Roleplay potentially can beat them to Great Library, which means that they are being face with challenges for both wonders. If we manage to beat them in pyramid, they will change their production to Great Library for sure and we may have hard time being able to beat them to it, even if we used a palace trick (assuming they do too, but they will get the tech first).

	26-11-2002 04:42									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

We should try to get one or the other. Like you said, if we do beat Legoland to one of them, they will surely beat us to the other. We have to decide which one is more important to us, and hopefully we'll get one of the two.

	26-11-2002 11:45									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The Pyramids would be my pick to go after. Probably be hard to get if we go head to head against legoland but the fact it lasts without expiration is huge.

	26-11-2002 20:21									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I thought Legoland was going to be Carthage??? This would mean that they start with a leg-up on both The Pyramids and GL, no? So, Trip is quite correct, we may end up with a one or the other choice. Going down this road, and adding what I've read from tech trading threads, if the Human players trade tech all the time, then the GL would just be a great cultural icon, nothing more.

If this holds, then I say go for Pyramids or bust and give up on the GL.