23-11-2002 13:24									#1
	Senate Foreign Affairs Cmte.: Buy Steam Power (or Communism) now or later? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

CURRENT DEALS FOR STEAM POWER

Germany: PEACE renegotiation + 101 LPT + 8 L + our WM (2028 L)
Rome: PEACE renegotiation + 105 LPT + 1 L + our WM (2101 L)
Japan: PEACE renegotiation + 107 LPT + 5 L + our WM (2145 L)
England: 120 LPT + 5 L + our WM (2405 L)
Japan: 126 LPT + 15 L + our WM (2535 L)
Rome: 127 LPT + 16 L + our WM (2556 L)
Germany: 130 LPT + 16 L + our WM (2616 L)

(note: England's peace renegotiation is next turn. Also, Greece tends to give us better prices and does not currently have Steam Power. We can always wait until they buy it and hopefully give us a better price.)

CURRENT DEALS FOR COMMUNISM

Greece: PEACE renegotiation + Dyes renegotiation + 64 LPT + 15 L + our WM (1295 L)
Greece: Dyes renegotiation + 79 LPT + 4 L + our WM (1564 L)
Germany: PEACE renegotiation + 94 LPT + 10 L + our WM (1890 L)
Rome: PEACE renegotiation + 98 LPT + 3 L + our WM (1963 L)
Japan: PEACE renegotiation + 100 LPT + 7 L + our WM (2007 L)
Greece: 110 LPT + 6 L + our WM (2206 L)
England: 112 LPT + 9 L + our WM (2249 L)
Japan: 118 LPT + 13 L + our WM (2373 L)
Rome: 119 LPT + 14 L + our WM (2394 L)
Germany: 122 LPT + 17 L (2457 L)

(note: England's peace renegotiation is not until next turn.)

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POSSIBLE PLANS:

PLAN A: Buy Steam Power for ~100 LPT and immediately start research on Electricity (then techwhore Electricity if we can), followed by Replaceable Parts. Wait for Electricity to make the trade for Communism and any other AI techs.

PLAN B: Buy Steam Power for ~100 LPT and see if we can give it to Greece in return for a reduced price on Communism. Following this, immediately start research on Electricity (then techwhore Electricity if we can), followd by Replaceable Parts.

PLAN C: Continue our 4-turn research toward Sanitation and attempt to Techwhore Sanitation in return for Steam Engine, Communism, and any other techs the AI has discovered. THEN work on Electricity or another tech (depending on what the situation looks like by then).

NOTE: while checking renegotiations is not a violation of the "play ahead rule", actually checking the feasibility of Plan B (which requires the buying of a tech from one civ and selling it to another) WOULD be playing ahead (at least in my opinion) and so we'll just have to figure whether it's worth the risk w/o getting to check it out. If someone from the Court (or another likewise placed) wants to clarify that this is permissible, then and only then can we do that.

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So do we buy Steam Power (or Communism) now or later?

	23-11-2002 15:07									#2
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Waiting for sanitation might be worth the risk. If we discover it before the AI (that is the risk), it could lower the price of both techs we'd buy, and bring us a good amount of cash from other Civs.
I say we wait.

	23-11-2002 15:21									#3
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About 100LPT is 1800 Lytons cold hard cash!

We got the deal with India for 210L & Medicine & WM for Nat & WM, why should we spend that much money for steam power, which wasn't as much of a priority last week as Nationalism & Medicine was.

We have already spent 1 turn with Sanitation, we'll lose beakers if we change now. IF for some reason we don't get Sanitation before the AI, we can still get started on RR and have the price drop through our own means of research.

Also, going for replaceable parts before we get Industrialization and factories is kind of wasteful. We'll have a larger upgrade bill for the near future AND longer build TOC's from the change to Infantry. Build the units at a lower shield cost and then upgrade for relatively cheaply. The same with Cannons & Artillary.

As for using the Peace Renegotiations for buying leverage, ALL of the current treaties that DO NOT have any LPT or Lux/Resource attached to them, thereby they can "lapse" and become normal, to be renegotiate at OUR timing. Germany is one that we will NEED to renegotiate and either let it go for no LPT/Lux or be ready to fire the very first shot in 20 turns when it comes up again.

Go with Plan C

E_T

	23-11-2002 15:24									#4
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I think we should continue researching Sanitation in hope to get it first. Although Steam Power costs 33% more than Sanitation does, Steam Power is now owned by several civs while if we research Sanitation first, we'd be the only civ to have it. This has a tremendous effect on the price of techs, so I think we'll be able to exchange Sanitation and some cash for Steam Power with one civ, Sanitation and some cash for Communism with another civ and then whore Sanitation around to the rest of the large civs to recover what we've paid for Steam Power and Communism (or perhaps even make a profit).

IMHO Greece is broke (which explains why it didn't, or more likely couldn't buy Steam Power) so we should not rely on the possibility that we could recover some of the price of Steam Power by selling it to Greece.

	23-11-2002 15:30									#5
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Why would we ever want to buy Communism, except as a freebie given to us later to help an ailing civ?

Buy it if you need it. Don't need it? Don't buy it.

	23-11-2002 15:45									#6
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Communism gives us Police Stations, which act like a second courthouse. IMHO they're very useful improvements.
Of course, if we realize that we can't get both Steam and Com. and we have to choose between the two, we'll take Steam.

	23-11-2002 18:39									#7
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quote: If someone from the Court (or another likewise placed) wants to clarify that this is permissible, then and only then can we do that.

I'm not in the court, but i remember that many months ago, near the beginning of the game, a consensus was reached that actually making trades is playing ahead (there wasn't a big debate but everyone pretty much agreed)

	23-11-2002 18:43									#8
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Interesting note: seems like Germany really wants to renegotiate peace. Maybe there's been an intel leek of our planned conquest?

	23-11-2002 20:52									#9
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I like plan C, since it is almost certain we will get to Sanitation first. A personally agree with NYE that communism should be recieved as a gift, but should not be a priority. We can be sure than given an equal start(and we were with Sanitations, we can easily out research them). Edited to change B to C inmy plan preference(I meant to put c this morning but acidently put B)
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 24-11-2002 at 06:27

	23-11-2002 21:07									#10
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IMHO we should not try to get Communism at the moment. Noone is talking about switching to Communism, and there's a long queue of improvements that we have to complete before we should start building Police Stations. By the time we'll need the ability to build Police Stations we'll be able to get it from Germany in the surrender agreement.
As for what to research, don't switch or we'll lose a lot of beakers.

Last edited by Shiber on 23-11-2002 at 21:12

	23-11-2002 21:25									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber IMHO we should not try to get Communism at the moment. Noone is talking about switching to Communism, and there's a long queue of improvements that we have to complete before we should start building Police Stations. By the time we'll need the ability to build Police Stations we'll be able to get it from Germany in the surrender agreement. As for what to research, don't switch or we'll lose a lot of beakers.

I do beg to differ with you on the effectiveness of the Police Station. For one thing, they would allow us to grow to our maxamum size and still be as productive as we can be. They are very effective, especially after a Factory and some form of Power plant is installed, the Waste reduction is great, especially coupled with WLKD's.

They also combat War Weariness very effectively. Yes, there are a few other improvements that I would build before a Police station, but as with everything else, it would all depend on the current status of any one city.

E_T

	23-11-2002 22:01									#12
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E_T, I'm sorry if my words were misleading. I think Police Stations are very useful, doubling as a second courthouse and an improvement that combats war weariness, but what I meant was that before we start building Police Stations we gotta finish some universities, banks, hospitals and possibly colloseums in some cities (if we want to retain WLTKD for a little longer after a hospital is built).
To sum up, Police Stations are important but not urgent. That said, it's best to wait for a better deal for Communism (such as getting it through surrender terms) than to rush for it now.

Last edited by Shiber on 23-11-2002 at 23:21

	23-11-2002 22:10									#13
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I agree with that, but some of the outlying provences would have great benifits from the reduced Corruption & Waste.

As for Hospitals & Coloseums, it is the official DM policy (with our warlike nature) that the cities will have the coloseums built before they will be allowed to grow beyond size 12 (or right afterwards). This will help to insure that we have as full of a happiness base as possible to combat any future WW and/or loss of Imported Luxuries, while they are over size 12.

E_T

	23-11-2002 23:50									#14
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hi ,

we could sell sanitation if they have money or trade with it , we should get police stations , they shall make it easier to build other buildings , .....

have a nice day

	24-11-2002 01:41									#15
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Plan C

	24-11-2002 17:09									#16
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hi ,

we should re-look at the options , see if they are 100 sure , check , recheck and double check , .......

have a nice day

	24-11-2002 19:40									#17
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All of the enumerated strategies have LOOSER written all over them. Simply put, you cannot successfully techwhore from behind.

As a direct result of the recent trading patterns practiced by this and previous administrations, we now have 4 1/2 AI tech engines, and are just as far behind in tech as we were in the early 900's. Yes folks, Japan has caught up. Greece is slighty behind, but will have our desired techs soon enough.

I suggest plan D

.)Continue sanitation at slightly lower tech rate
.)Invest resultant Lytons in the tools of war
.)Refuse all LPT deals
.)Identify a target
.)Take desired techs as a part of the surrender terms of the identified target.

Which Civ to attack? Look at Germany, Greece, England. All of them have (or soon will have) the techs we crave. Rome and Japan are simply too far away for now. Look at the 'active' screen under diplomacy for each. See which has the smallest turn commitment. Hello target!

Stop all negotiations with all potential targets that include lpt deals (or peace deals) so that we will be able to attack another leader Civ for the next round of techs.

The above strategy leads to tech supremacy and ultimate victory.

If there is anyone who still believes in our current appeasement strategy, kindly look at how history has treated Chamberlain.

	24-11-2002 22:05									#18
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hi ,

Shiber , what would you say to hold the war with the germans until infantry , but only if we can get it very fast , can it be done in ten - sixteen turns , ........

have a nice day

	25-11-2002 00:28									#19
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Plan D
Enough said.

	25-11-2002 02:01									#20
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Panag, delaying the war until infantry is pointless and wasteful. In fact, we want to hold the war before Germany gets infantry or they'll make minced meat out of our cavalry.
I hope I just misunderstood you and you meant the opposite.

Last edited by Shiber on 25-11-2002 at 02:50

	25-11-2002 04:08									#21
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I think Panag means waiting till we get Infantry. That would be nice, but I doubt we could beat them to it; even if we did, they would probably be just a turn or two behind.

	25-11-2002 15:34									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Panag, delaying the war until infantry is pointless and wasteful. In fact, we want to hold the war before Germany gets infantry or they'll make minced meat out of our cavalry. I hope I just misunderstood you and you meant the opposite.

hi ,



is there anyway a way we can get infantry before them , real fast , .............

no techwhoring project , ........

have a nice day

	25-11-2002 19:30									#23
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It's possible that we'll get infantry before them, but not long before. If we open fire as soon as we get infantry, the Germans will get infantry sometime early during the war. This will defeat the purpose, which is to avoid fighting German infantry with our cavalries altogether by declaring war earlier.

	25-11-2002 22:22									#24
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I think there's an 80% chance the Germans will have Replaceable Parts before us, a 15% chance that we discover the techs the same turn, and only a 5% chance that we beat the Germans to it.

Can we buy Steam Power & Communism now without lowering the science rate so we still have Sanitation in 4 turns?

(We need to start working on railroads)

	26-11-2002 02:40									#25
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I think there's an 80% chance the Germans will have Replaceable Parts before us, a 15% chance that we discover the techs the same turn, and only a 5% chance that we beat the Germans to it.

What are these figures based on?

quote: Can we buy Steam Power & Communism now without lowering the science rate so we still have Sanitation in 4 turns? (We need to start working on railroads)

I agree that we need to get started on railroads (the reason why I consider Steam Power to be a military necessity). However, buying Steam Power this turn, as I mention at the top of the thread, would cost us upwards of 2000 lytons (or 100 lpt), which would effectively bankrupt us for at least a little while (and I we'd HAVE to lower the science slider to afford it). So the general consensus seems to be that it's not worth shelling out 100 lytons a turn for the next 20 turns to get Steam Power NOW and better to wait until we have Sanitation. I'm willing to respect that opinion...

	26-11-2002 03:13									#26
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It's a rough guess based on when the AI has been discovered techs in this game cross referenced back to AI tech discovery rate and priroity in my own games on the Emperor level.

We defenately need to get more structrues that improve taxes if a mere 100 GPT is seen as bankrupting the economy. (Mostly Banks)

In my own Emperor level game I was able to reserach every Industrial Era tech in 4 or 5 turns with the tresury peaking in valuation at 4200 Gold with only 10 cities. And this was with only 2 local luxaries, (others were bought) and paying 65 GPT for Oil after the AI got to Refinering. (No local oil supply)

	26-11-2002 03:32									#27
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn We defenately need to get more structrues that improve taxes if a mere 100 GPT is seen as bankrupting the economy. (Mostly Banks)

Well, if we were a commercial civilization rather than playing Egypt, this wouldn't be anywhere nearly as much of a problem

(I typically always play commercial civs in single-player )

	26-11-2002 20:02									#28
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Actually, in the above game where I got the massive surplus of cash with 10 cities on Emperor level I'm China. (This game is just about over now.)

You don't get half cost banks or market places for being commerical. In fact, since we are playing 1.21f instead of 1.29f, there is a significant handicap playing Commerical civs.

I got my Forbidden Palace built much earlier in that game than this one (About 35% thru the Middle Ages Techs), which virtually eliminated corrpution & waste from an early date. There is also a lot of river tiles in my territory, with five of those cities along a river and in addition all except two cities are coastal.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Well, if we were a commercial civilization rather than playing Egypt, this wouldn't be anywhere nearly as much of a problem (I typically always play commercial civs in single-player )

	27-11-2002 01:43									#29
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	27-11-2002 01:44									#30
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