26-11-2002 04:16									#31
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History doesn't require a working knowlege of the Cyrillic alphabet.

	26-11-2002 04:19									#32
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The right to self-determination is one of the most basic of rights. The Russians have no right to keep other people's from being free.

	26-11-2002 04:19									#33
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No but holding opinions about a country of 220 million people could perhaps require slightly more knowledge of the country that you can pick up in the op-eds of the NY Times, don't you agree?

	26-11-2002 04:22									#34
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Desintegration of Russia would be a major humanitarian and geopolitical catastrophe, much more so than the desintegration of the Soviet Union. Do you know why the USSR desintegrated so smoothly (relatively speaking)? It's because a strong and responsible successor state was in place -- the Russian Federation. You the Westerners don't seem to really appreciate this historic fact and the role of Russia. You think it was all for granted. Just look at Yugoslavia to see otherwise. Now if the Russian Federation desintegrates, what would be in its place? You should pray for the Russian Federation to exist and to keep order in that corner of the globe. Well, you may not pray, but at least please write off the debts of the Soviet era. Fortunately though Russia is more solid than the USSR, and doesn't look like desintegrating.

	26-11-2002 04:23									#35
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Taz, I'm afraid you are scaring away potential posters to this thread with your tough criteria.

	26-11-2002 04:25									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Btw, I guess not everyone knows it but I am a russian citizen, too.

That's great.

	26-11-2002 04:33									#37
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Vagabond, this isn't quite right...
1.Yugoslavia was in fact very different case. Firstly, because these former Yugoslavian countries themselves were full of many different cultures, religions, etc. Take Bosnia and Herzegovina as example. Ones who weren't such, like Slovenia, exited painlessly without conflicts later. Also, in Yugolsavia the change of governments wasn't so noticeble. Yeltsin in Russia immidietly claimed that he doesn't wants former territories and recognised independence, thus making it easier to find a peaceful solution (probably if Putin would have been in power at a time, he wouldn't have done the same - that is why I think Yeltsin was good president). In Yugoslavia everything was different. Yugoslavian government tried to immidietly regain lost lands and that resultd into war, which was quite deadly for all the sides.
2.If Chechenya and Tatarstan would be allowed to go indepenent (and they are the only countries which seeks independence now), Russia still would be strong. And even if all nations would declare independence from Russia, Russia still would be strong enough. Do you think that lose of such countries as Yakutia, Karelia, Kalmukia, etc. would make Russia very weak? Russian strenght is in it's Russian territory, near Moscow and St. Petersburg, not in Caucassus or Siberia. It always been that way. Two thirds of Russian people lives in those territories, most of agriculture and infrastructure is also based there.

	26-11-2002 04:48									#38
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Sonic: yes, Yugolavia was very different, and this is what I wanted to tell. On the other hand, if you want to say that those were the merits just of Yeltsin and not of Russia, I disagree. Russia as a country should be given full credit for peaceful dissolution of the USSR.

As for Chechnya, it is not ready for independence yet, as it cannot be trusted to be a responsible peaceful state.

Tatarstan is a more complicated issue. This can be considered in the future, but right now Russia can't afford to destabilize itself by granting independences.

	26-11-2002 05:04									#39
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The right to self-determination is one of the most basic of rights. The Russians have no right to keep other people's from being free.

Just a typical irresponsible leftist blah-blah (sorry, Che ).

	26-11-2002 05:05									#40
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I should add The Vagabond to the list of those qualified to hold opinions on the subject matter of this thread but can't be bothered.

Sorry for any disruption, but I think I have made my point.

	26-11-2002 05:31									#41
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To all independentists out there:
You may worry about the independence of the peoples who don't even know yet that they want to be independent. But what about the enormous sufferings of the Russian people that will ensue should the Russian Federation be destabilized? You don't seem to care about that.

	26-11-2002 05:50									#42
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Yet again, Russian Federation wouldn't be destabilized even if all the nations except Russian gets out of it, since the most of agricultur,e infrastructure and people (and also cities) is exacly in the Russian part of the Federation (at least 2/3 people lives there).
And the Federation would probably even don't fell if just Chechenya and Tatarstan would go. Probably it would be even more peaceful if Chechnya would go.

	26-11-2002 06:08									#43
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Sonic: Statehood is one of the important values in Russia. If someone is granted independence, the perception will be that the state crumbles away, and besides this may provoke separatist feelings in the places that now don't even think of independence. All this will destabilize the Federation. Therefore, granting independence is not a joke, it is a very serious step which should be thoroughly thought and prepared. Right now, Russia is too weak and can't afford that.

quote: Probably it would be even more peaceful if Chechnya would go.

Chechnya was already gone once. Do you remember how "peaceful" it was?

	26-11-2002 06:14									#44
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Vagabond, no, Chechnya wasn't ever officially gone. BTW, I meant it would be more peaceful in the federation if Chechnya would go.
Yet again, re-read my posts before please - I said that Russian part of Russia is the major part of Federation, it has more than 2/3 of people, most of agriculture and infrastructure. Thus Russia would still remain a strong country even with all nation gone, although I don't think all of them would want to go even if independence would now be given to Chechnya and Tatarstan.

	26-11-2002 06:26									#45
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The federal form of government is ideal for providing for a commonwealth while providing sufficient autonomy at the state or province level. It is only when the federal government goes over the line and begins to impose unwelcome laws on the states that the states rebel. I am thinking of our own civil war.

But even so, I would not let a state secede without the consent of the federal government. This actually may involve two plebiscites: one at the state or province level to determine whether the state wanted to secede; a second at the national level to determine whether to grant the state’s request to secede.

As to Russia: it is their internal business now. Russia is no Milosovician Serbia.

	26-11-2002 06:32									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Vagabond, no, Chechnya wasn't ever officially gone. BTW, I meant it would be more peaceful in the federation if Chechnya would go.

Chechnya was de facto gone. What makes you think they'd be any more peaceful if they were gone officially?

quote: Yet again, re-read my posts before please - I said that Russian part of Russia is the major part of Federation, it has more than 2/3 of people, most of agriculture and infrastructure. Thus Russia would still remain a strong country even with all nation gone, although I don't think all of them would want to go even if independence would now be given to Chechnya and Tatarstan.

Yes, but you forget the perception part.

	26-11-2002 06:33									#47
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Good points, Ned.

	26-11-2002 06:39									#48
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Some bastards keep voting for Russia's dissolution. But they don't care to expose their opinions here.

	26-11-2002 07:01									#49
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Vagabond, Next you will see the Euro's mounting a poll to determine whether the UN should interceed on behalf of the South to finally let them go free!

As to Russia being too large to govern effectively, I have read many a historian who applauded the appointment of two Augusti which lead in time to a divided empire. The reason for the two Augusti was the apparent necessity of conducting two independent wars at the same time, one in the East and another in the West. However, what actually happened is that the West was enormously weakened because it had insufficient resources to provide for the very large army it needed. As the barbarians began to carve up pieces of the West, this problem cascaded until the West could no longer pay for the Army. So even though they remained in Roman hands, Britain and Northern Gaul were simply abandoned to their fate. The West never did raise sufficient resources to retake the fallen lands.

I could see the same thing happening to a dismembered Russia.

	26-11-2002 07:07									#50
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Exactly. This will make it easier for China to grab Siberia, and will leave the European part of Russia without resourses.

	26-11-2002 07:08									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Viking Berserk I think those who want independence should get independence, else the UN should force it through. I also think the russians should get out of Chechnya.

The problem that I have with Chechnya is that they or least some in Chechnya want it to become a Fundamentalist Islamic State. Then OBL would be free to move in and then one day the Russian and the US together would have invade and run him out, remove the goverment and install a friendly gov.
Serb remember you now have seat at NATO. Just can't vote yet.

Serb a question. Siberia is a big place. Where in Siberia do you live? How many miles from Moscow and North of Kazakhstan or Mongolia?
The reason that I'm asking is because I will probably not ever be able to travel to Siberia.
I live about 40 to 45 miles north east of San Francisco, California.
1.6 km per mile.

	26-11-2002 07:09									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Taz Serb * Sprayber Azazel * Viking Berserk Urban Ranger JCG Sonic * Andrew1999 DinoDoc aahz_capone Taz *= Qualified to discuss this matter under the criteria I published earlier.

People discuss US domestic issues all the time without ever being here or having a clue so climb down from your self imposed morality and get real like the rest of us. At least Serb talks about the issue.

	26-11-2002 07:17									#53
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond As for Chechnya, it is not ready for independence yet, as it cannot be trusted to be a responsible peaceful state. .

The United States said that very same thing about the Phillippenes for decades. We kept it as a territory all along saying that we were doing it for their protections because they were not capable of doing it themselves. It only brougth misery to the people there and animosity towards the US. Many felt the same way about Cuba. In the end what we did was wrong. It went against what we were supposed to represent. We paid for it in blood. Let them go.

	26-11-2002 07:23									#54
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Sprayber:
But they were already gone once! And we know very well what ensued there. Therefore the comparison with the Philippines and Cuba is not quite correct.

	26-11-2002 07:23									#55
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Some of you think that Russia has to be divided into small countries. I'm talking about letting those that are unhappy go. The more you condecend to them and treat them like children the more they will insist on going and the more they will be willing to use violence againt the goverment. What does Chechya bring to the Federation that makes it so impossible to let go? Is it just pride that is makes you not want to let them go?

	26-11-2002 07:25									#56
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Sprayber: But they were already gone once! And we know very well what ensued there. Therefore the comparison with the Philippines and Cuba is not quite correct.

What you mean after you destroyed their cities. Were you guys really shocked that they hated you so much?

	26-11-2002 07:35									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber What you mean after you destroyed their cities. Were you guys really shocked that they hated you so much?

While one would not, of course, expect too much love, one would expect them to leave Russia in peace after they are granted independence. That didn't happen.

Besides, you miss the following point. During the period of their de-facto independence, Russia was pumping tons of federal money into Chechnya. Unfortunately this money was not spent on rebuilding Chechnya as intended, but rather on weapons, drags, mercenaries, etc.

	26-11-2002 07:40									#58
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond While one would not, of course, expect too much love, one would expect them to leave Russia in peace after they are granted independence. That didn't happen. Besides, you miss the following point. During the period of their de-facto independence, Russia was pumping tons of federal money into Chechnya. Unfortunately this money was not spent on rebuilding Chechnya as intended, but rather on weapons, drags, mercenaries, etc.

You say de facto independence. Did Russia recognize Chechen independence? Why would the Chechens not prepare for some kind of fight?

	26-11-2002 07:44									#59
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About this question, I know that Yakutia has an important independence movement.

Mongolia is becoming an example in the area, after the dissolution of the comunist government, it started a small process of recuperation (it only has 1 and a half million of inhabitants, be patient ) that encourages the other countries.

Uzbekistan is the best example of how an old republic can start a modernization process (and not only by petroleum extraction!), all the other mid-asian countries (except tadjikistan) are in a major/minor process of industrialization so... Why not Yakutia? Also there's Tannu Tuva that has at least some important history points, these two countries can surely break Russia in the eastern area.

In the west area, I believe, this is totally improbable. A truly federation of countries is the only solution.

Last edited by XarXo on 26-11-2002 at 07:55

	26-11-2002 07:46									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber You say de facto independence. Did Russia recognize Chechen independence?

No. In 1997 the sides agreed to postpone the issue of independence for 5 years.

quote: Why would the Chechens not prepare for some kind of fight?

LOL! They indeed prepared so well (for the Russian federal money, btw) that they were even able to attack Dagestan (a republic within the Russian Federation, if you don't know).