25-11-2002 15:46									#1
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49 oblasts
21 republics
10 autonomous oblast
1 autonomous region
2 federal cities


Should Russia give all those areas that want independence the opportunity to leave? If so how would the divisions be made?

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	25-11-2002 17:14									#2
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I say no. Where I am totally for givng certain ethnic regions autonomy, I think Russia should stay a federation. The more small "nations" the more chance of something going wrong on a diplomatic scale and then you also have anothe 200+ nations in the UN slowing it down even more.

It would be the opposite of what the EU is trying to achieve, which is prosperity in unity. Making a national goverment for all those rgions is also exessively wasteful.

Anyways, most are happy to stay under moscow's eye, concidering a federaion is pretty loose form of governance.

what the hell is an oblast anyway?

	25-11-2002 17:36									#3
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone what the hell is an oblast anyway?

http://www.vik-lomancov.narod.ru/e-subj.htm

I think its Russion for region. I'm sure I'll be corrected by our Russian posters.


I'm sure that the vast majority of the Russian subivisions are happy with their position within the Russian Federation. But for those that may not be, then prehaps the Russians would be better off letting them go.

	25-11-2002 17:51									#4
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Our reply to devil's plans-
Keep dreaming.

Edited by Ming...
Uhhhh Serb... that word is on the auto censor list. What makes you think it's ok to include it in an image

Last edited by Ming on 25-11-2002 at 19:41

	25-11-2002 17:56									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I think its Russion for region. I'm sure I'll be corrected by our Russian posters.

Well, it's true. Oblast or Guberniya it's nearby terriories of big city governed by governor wich is elected every 4 years. For example Moscow oblast- territories near Moscow, Novosibirsk oblast -territories near Novosibirsk, ets. It's like state in USA, the difference is that in oblast only one big city, other cities relatively small.

	25-11-2002 18:16									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Our reply to devil's plans- Keep dreaming.

I guess that's what Russians say to the peoples that seek self determination.


It might be better if all regions, or areas or whatever had the same deal. It seems however that some areas get more freedom than others. Why is this, and shouldn't all areas be treated exactly the same?

	25-11-2002 18:23									#7
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Besides wouldn't you like to see this flag flying high above your home.

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	25-11-2002 19:07									#8
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I think those who want independence should get independence, else the UN should force it through.
I also think the russians should get out of Chechnya.

	25-11-2002 19:09									#9
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quote: Besides wouldn't you like to see this flag flying high above your home.

No, I prefer 300 years old flag of Russian Federation.

Would you prefer to see such state of liberty?

	25-11-2002 19:17									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I guess that's what Russians say to the peoples that seek self determination.

We say it to people who want to see us in a grave.

quote: It might be better if all regions, or areas or whatever had the same deal. It seems however that some areas get more freedom than others. Why is this, and shouldn't all areas be treated exactly the same?

Absolutely agreed. It would be better and easier if all regions would treated eaqualy. National republics and autonomus regions have too many privelegies and benefits in comapre with oblasts.
But new territorial division (f.e. like in USA) would cause unrests, because everyone will start shout that Russians want to "Rusificate" national republics and other nationalities who live within.

	25-11-2002 19:21									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Viking Berserk I think those who want independence should get independence, else the UN should force it through.

Yeah, right and USA should return south to Mexico otherwise UN will kick their asses.

quote: I also think the russians should get out of Chechnya.

Yeah, and Americans should get out of Afghanistan, re-establish Taliban there, also people of the world should elect Osama bin Laden as UN seretary and then the age of peace and prosperity will start.

	25-11-2002 19:35									#12
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I hope someone else from Russia comes into the thread because as usual your arguements dont make a lot of sense.

quote: No, I prefer 300 years old flag of Russian Federation. Would you prefer to see such state of liberty?

I dont see the connection between the statue of liberty and Russians not allowing those that want to go their own way, go. By keeping people with extreme views inside your country for no other reason than pride you really make it hard to feel sorry for your current situation. What does Chechnya really bring to Russia except pain and blood? Maybe one day Mother Russia will call you to go to Chechnya and kill people in order to keep the region in line. The Czars, Communists, modern Russians, its all the same for the people that have been chained to Russia for centuries. But I guess as long as Russians are happy, all is good.

	25-11-2002 19:39									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Yeah, right and USA should return south to Mexico otherwise UN will kick their asses.:rolleyes

The South never was a part of Mexico. But if you mean the Southwest, we will hold a vote if you will.

	25-11-2002 19:55									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I hope someone else from Russia comes into the thread because as usual your arguements dont make a lot of sense.

If you've lived HERE between 1996-1999 when Chechnya was independant and when they blow-up OUR houses, stole OUR people for slavery, blow-up bombs in undergroud passages, market squares and in other places almost every week, when they kidnaped OUR childrens and cut-off their fingers to send back parents as proof of their intentions, and done all this when there was no single Russian soldier or police officer in Chechnya, when they already won their war for independence in 1996 and turned to state of chaose and Islam dictatorship, perhaps then for you my arguments have a bit more sense. It's your luck that you didn't live here and din't saw it.
You still have no idea what religious extremism is. It's really sad considering what your country experienced Sept 11.

quote: I dont see the connection between the statue of liberty and Russians not allowing those that want to go their own way, go. By keeping people with extreme views inside your country for no other reason than pride you really make it hard to feel sorry for your current situation.

You didn't noticed that it was a bit different state of liberty?
Hint for you: The conection is Islamic religious extremism.

quote: What does Chechnya really bring to Russia except pain and blood? Maybe one day Mother Russia will call you to go to Chechnya and kill people in order to keep the region in line. The Czars, Communists, modern Russians, its all the same for the people that have been chained to Russia for centuries. But I guess as long as Russians are happy, all is good.

If my country will call my to defend my motherland from bandits, and jerks who calling capture hundrends of hostages in theater a "unique military action", I will gladly follow.

	25-11-2002 19:58									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber The South never was a part of Mexico. But if you mean the Southwest, we will hold a vote if you will.

Fine, just do the same in Alaska. Im sure Russian government will covertly send a couple of millions Russians there to gain US citizenships and then vote for independance from US and joining with Russia- the proper owner of this land

	25-11-2002 20:30									#16
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This is a complicated question but my short answer is no.

There are a whole lot of issues involved. What allows for secession? If a majority of California wants out, will the US let it? If not, why should Russia let any one of its regions to become independent? If unilateral sucession is declared, can the other side beat it into submission just like the US Civil War? How small a scale is allowed? Can Montreal declare indepdence from Quebec if Quebec declares indepedence from Canada? What about a city block?

What grants a region the right to declare independence anyway?

	25-11-2002 20:45									#17
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Only as much as the U.S. and China should break up....

	25-11-2002 21:22									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Fine, just do the same in Alaska. Im sure Russian government will covertly send a couple of millions Russians there to gain US citizenships and then vote for independance from US and joining with Russia- the proper owner of this land

Hey, we bought it from you guys fair and sqaure. Actually if you need some more quick cash we can start buying Siberia off of you. I think Petropavlovsk and Vladivostok would look good full of US Navy ships.

	25-11-2002 23:16									#19
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fine, said from a siberian himself. they don't want freedom

	26-11-2002 00:28									#20
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Well, from a strictly utilitarian perspective, IMO the technology hasn't yet evolved to the level that will allow to govern such a hugh amount of territory efficiently. decentralization but staying a single state might help increase productivity on a place-by-place basis, but even that will take some kind of time. The overall strength of the country will remain relatively low. Let us not forget that the current area is infact similar in heritage to the British Commonwealth, a remainder of the empirial era of Russia. A creation of two economically viable states in the east will be a better solution in the time being. HOWEVER, this might change rather fast with the development of new technologies and their implementation in the governing of the country. If this were implemented, the government could achieve greater centralization of decision making without harming productivity. So, in short, I dunno.

	26-11-2002 00:34									#21
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How many people participating in this discussion:

a) Speak Russian and read the Russian press?
b) Have been to Russia?
c) Have lived in Russia?
d) Know any Russians
e) Have any first handknowledge of the issues they are pronouncing so selfimportantly on?

Unless the answer to all 5 questions is yes how is their opinion the slightest bit relevent or meaningful?

Well?

	26-11-2002 00:48									#22
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errm, 5 "yes" answers here.

	26-11-2002 01:15									#23
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Yes, fo me also 5 or at least 4 answers (don't read Russian press, but it's quite frequantly being recitised in Lithuanian press)

And I think Russia, the last true empire, should be broken up into parts. Chechenya and Tatarstan already voted for independence, so let them go. As for others, do refrendums everywhere and let go every nation who voted for independence.

	26-11-2002 01:22									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Im sure Russian government will covertly send a couple of millions Russians there to gain US citizenships and then vote for independance from US and joining with Russia- the proper owner of this land

You sold it fair and square. Don't start whining now because we got the better end of the deal.

	26-11-2002 01:28									#25
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actually IIRC it was rented for 99 years, but the soviets have forefeited any future claims to the territory.

Btw, I guess not everyone knows it but I am a russian citizen, too.

	26-11-2002 02:38									#26
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Serb *
Sprayber
Azazel *
Viking Berserk
Urban Ranger
JCG
Sonic *
Andrew1999
DinoDoc
aahz_capone
Taz

*= Qualified to discuss this matter under the criteria I published earlier.

So far only three people in this post have shown themselves qualified to comment on this subject (I'm leaving myself off because although I fit most of the criteria I just think the whole discussion is so off the wall that I have nothing except ridicule to add).

I await the responses of the other posters with baited breath.

	26-11-2002 03:03									#27
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No, of course I'm not qualified to seriously discuss this matter under that criteria, but then again, I didn't really give an opinion about it, you see. Carry on.

	26-11-2002 04:04									#28
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No, that's OK, its fair comment that you didn't take the sdiscussion very seriously either.

	26-11-2002 04:06									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Taz So far only three people in this post have shown themselves qualified to comment on this subject

I'll have you know that I'm well qualified to condecend to Serb on the matter I was talking to him about.

	26-11-2002 04:14									#30
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How?