28-11-2002 17:19									#1
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hi to all vox controli team memebers.

	28-11-2002 18:21									#2
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Hi Flash. Is this our private forum?

Can we finally start discussing strategy instead of all the window dressing stuff?

	28-11-2002 18:59									#3
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Wheehee! A private forum!

	28-11-2002 19:15									#4
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yep this is it beta

	28-11-2002 21:52									#5
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woohoo

Jon Miller

	29-11-2002 05:25									#6
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OK. Now we can get down to some serious discussions.

The civ - we gotta decide.

Any thoughts on game play folks - or do we just see what comes our way. We have presented an aggressive persona. Is that how we want to play?

Also - any views on what would be the best starting civ on a standard size map with 7-8 civs? Other than the Aztecs. Although I do like them for a fast start.

I think getting a good start is going to be key with human players. OR Maybe a fast start will amke you a target for the others. Maybe it is best to lay quietly in a corner - be peaceful and expand slowly. ie don't show up on anybody's radar screen for awhile.

Another thing I've been thinking about with human players - I always wish I could convince the AI to do this - with one or more allies we could reach agreement on researching techs. ie team A researches one tech, team B another - the agreement being to swap when done. Presto - you have doubled your tech research. With three civs in agreement, you could triple it. I expect with human opponents the old vassal strategy - of getting mega amounts of cash and tech from your opponents won't cut it. We should consider cultivating an early alliance and agreement with another team to this.

I also think hammering a civ, and then getting them to pay up, as per vassal strategy, may not work in many cases for other reasons. With humans running things I suspect the desire for revenge will overcome the desire for survival, and a civ would rather go down honourably to its demise.

I think early alliances are going to be the key. For example - with 3 civs on a continent, you better be part of that first alliance or you are toast.

Now, the civ. What do you think Jon. You've seen the chit chat on the other forum. I see Persia, the Celts, and yes, the Japanese in the running. Help me here guys - as I've said, I've never played them, but they always seem to be hanging in there and a pain in the butt in the games I've played.

Egypt is taken - and I don't think it is fair to come in late and ask for it. I can say that here, amongst friends. If you disagree, let me know.

And there is always the Vikings - expansionist to find them - and Berserkers to kill them. And it does start with a V.

I really believe militaristic will be a big plus in a match against humans. Why - better chance of leaders for construction of wonders. I expect all wonders will be built that way. Which would support an early agressive style with a militaristic civ and a better chance at leaders.

There - some early musings. What think thee, old noble team?

	29-11-2002 06:07									#7
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I have never been very good at getting leaders, so I don't know how useful they are

JOn MIler

	29-11-2002 06:08									#8
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if we get a leader use it to build fp

	29-11-2002 06:45									#9
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fp?

and why not build in army first so it can get at least one victory and we can build armies?

Jon Miller

	29-11-2002 06:49									#10
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forbidden place more important, use it to build infasturcure and get ahead in tech. Armys are useless in my opinon

	29-11-2002 06:52									#11
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hmm, not having very many leaders I guess I could agree with you

I usually build the forbidden palace later in the game, when I have serious trouble with corruption

Jon Miller

	29-11-2002 06:53									#12
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I would think that a leader would be better used to win a wonder race (for a major wonder)

Jon Miller

	29-11-2002 07:48									#13
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Yup - Jon's right. Leaders are the short cut to wonders. As I said earlier, I think with 7 (or is it 6) human opponents, there will be quite the race for the early wonders, in particular, the pyramids, and the great library, which, imo, are the ones you want.

Later - use a leader to build an army - and allow you to build the heroic epic. But the early wonder is way more valuable.

Any thoughts on the other points I have raised? C'mon. You guys have played the game.....?

Also - what about a civ????

I know - that Egyptian combo of industrious and religious is hard to beat. I still say militaristic in the human vs human forum is the way to go. Let's get some discussion going. We only have a day or two to 'publicly' declare a civ.

Jon - you had earlier drafted up a set of team governance rules/mechanics which looked good. Wondering if we should re-post your original note and agree to it and/or modify it as a working set of team rules.

	29-11-2002 19:09									#14
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OK - WE NEED TO DECIDE ON A CIV.

Given that we are quasi-democratic, I suggest we vote. Unless you have already declared for the team Jon, in which case I will go to my corner and be quiet.

So - three votes - but this time weighted. First choice gets 3 points, second 2, third 1. I'll go first. Just add in your votes and feel free to do the math and give a running score. But we have to do it today - I would think.

Another consideration - whether we want an Asian, European, or American civ. Presumably - like the real game - we will be neighbours with geographic partners. Remember - the Glory of War has chosen the Chinese - and I don't think we need the problems of having them as an early neighbour. It could be a pain.

My votes -

1. Celts 3 points

2. Vikings 2

3. Greeks 1

	29-11-2002 19:13									#15
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Sorry - my third choice should be Aztecs - one of the triple threat civs - religious, militaristic, and expansionsist - yes - because Jag Warriors have a movement of two and are available early on. Almost the same as scout - but can fight.

Celts - 3 points
Vikings - 2
Aztecs - 1

	29-11-2002 19:38									#16
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1. perisa
2.french
3.carthaginians

	29-11-2002 19:59									#17
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Persians
Americans
French

	29-11-2002 20:26									#18
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egypt
vikings
celts

Jon Miller

	29-11-2002 20:48									#19
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could spomeone place a poll?

Jon Miller

	29-11-2002 21:19									#20
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GUYS!

The Civ must be industrial! It's the best trait in the game!

	29-11-2002 21:22									#21
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yah, I know it is good (but I really like vikings and religious, also I heard one of our other players saying how good celts are)

Jon Miller

	29-11-2002 22:09									#22
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Eli - I acknowledge the advatage of double speed workers. I like it to come with either industrious or militaristic. That is no doubt why Jon is voting for Egypt. I just consider them taken by another team.

I still like militaristic and religious. That one turn of anarchy and half price temples and cathedrals are a real bonus.

so - Dissident and Wittlich. Where are you? We need your votes and we need them NOW.

THE CONTROLLER WANTS YOU!!!!

Jon - rather than a poll, here are the results to-date by the weighted scoring system. Is this OK? (Besides - I have no idea how to do a poll. I still don't know how to use the smilies.)

We just need two more folks to weigh in.

Persia 6
Celts 4
Vikings 4
French 3
Egypt 3
America 2
Aztecs 1
Carthage 1

We await the lost souls....

(sound of Jeopardy palying in the background...)

	29-11-2002 22:35									#23
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Eli- I'm sitting here doing some thinking and researching while I munch on my sandwich, vis-a-vis the Persians.

Industrious - yes - agreed - great trait. Especially as it lets you get the earlt settlers out there faster as your road network is up faster.

Scientific - OK. Cheap libraries and universities are great, but they don't have the double plus of culture and HAPPINESS that comes with religious and temples and cathedrals.

Great UU- the immortals. Would let us be warmongering in the early days - if we so desired. Makes us sort of a triple threat civ.

AND - we would only be one tech away from iron Working - as we start with Brionze Working - which means we would have our immortals, and we would have them early. And with a road network to get them to the borders in a hurry ....we could really play havoc with our neighbours.

Hmmmmmm... thinking about it. Played them once a long time ago - can't remember much about them.

I am concerned about having the Chinese and the Glory of war as aggressive neighbours.

Jon - any word on how they will mix up the board - or will we start as per the normal game - ie Europe with Europe - Asia with Asia , etc.

	29-11-2002 22:39									#24
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im not worried about gow Ghengisfarb tooken control of the team, I think the team to look out for is the German team. If there 3 peoople on our contiennt we have to sign alliance first.

	29-11-2002 22:46									#25
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Flash - understood. And I noticed on the other thread that they have now publicly declared - they are Arabia - which means if we were Persians we sould be neighbours.

So - what would the lesser of the two evils be. In other words - who do we ally with first to take out a neighbour.

I have two years of German from high-school ... long time ago - doubt it would help. But - they may be looking for early allies as well.

What do you know about GhengisFarb.?

	29-11-2002 23:17									#26
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he good friend, no real threat. If gathering storm is own our contieniet i would like to have my revenge on them

	29-11-2002 23:50									#27
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The other civs so far are:

Roleplayers - Spain
Lux Invicta - Ottomans
Legoland - Carthage
Gathering Storm - Egypt
Glory of War- China
Neu Demogytica - Arabia
Vox Controli- ?????

Jon - do you know if there is going to be one AI civ, or are they going with 7.

Also- the above has a Mediterranean feel to it - except for China.

If we took Persia - we would probably be slotted in next to Glory and GS. Could be messy.

If we are the Vikings or Celts - probably Spain.

If there is going to be an AI civ, it sure would be an advantage to start next to it - as opposed to getting sandwiched in between two of the human civs.

So - thought I would add the above on case it influences anybody's civ choices.

Jon - any way of getting a hold of Wiitlich or Dissiedent?

Flash, Eli, or Jon - wanna change you votes at all?

	29-11-2002 23:59									#28
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I PMed them both.

	30-11-2002 00:27									#29
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no ai civs beta

	30-11-2002 00:44									#30
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Eli - thanks.

Flash - good to know. probably the fairest approach as well, given that it could have given a huge advantage to one or more civs randomly.

Also - have you guys been following the discussion about the PBEM bug, and how everyone is going to have to be 'trusted' to only load the .sav file from the title screen? Yikes!!!