02-12-2002 06:05									#31
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Britain was lucky Prussians don't like water.

The invasion of Britain was quite feasible in 1940. Britain was practically defenceless. The army left most of its equipment at Dunkirk, the navy and air force would have been hard pressed to interdict an invasion force.

The lucky thing was the effect on air power on capital ships had not yet been demonstrated in 1940 so Hitler had no idea just how easy it would have been for the Luftwaffe to keep the Royal Navy at bay.

What saved Britain was Hitler did not want to risk a fighting invasion like D Day. He wanted a risk free landing.

	02-12-2002 06:39									#32
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Absolutely wrong AH. As I posted earlier Hitler wanted to rule the world alongside the Brits. He never wanted war with the West, at least not beyond avenging the defeat of WWI. He was satisfied by the humiliation of the French defeat.

Revisionists be damned. Hitler is condemned for the bombing of London but the facts are that England was the first to institute mass bombings of civilian targets. Hitler only retalitated.

Hitler almost certainly allowed the BEF to escape. Hitler was true to his core beliefs and England he considered a sister Aryan country.

Sealion was never seriously contemplated by Hitler for two reasons. It was not feasible and he wanted to settle with England.

	02-12-2002 06:51									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Britain was lucky Prussians don't like water. The invasion of Britain was quite feasible in 1940. Britain was practically defenceless. The army left most of its equipment at Dunkirk, the navy and air force would have been hard pressed to interdict an invasion force. The lucky thing was the effect on air power on capital ships had not yet been demonstrated in 1940 so Hitler had no idea just how easy it would have been for the Luftwaffe to keep the Royal Navy at bay.

If one looks at the later war statistics of the effect of German air against allied warships one can come to a markedly different conclusion. Other than a raid or two against the main base at Scarpa Flow (something like a single days sailing IIRC) the RN was basically unscathed. German naval transport was sorely lacking after the debacle in Norway and had an attempted invasion been cut off the Wehrmacht could've found itself in much the same state as the BEF when it was pulled out of Normandy.

quote: What saved Britain was Hitler did not want to risk a fighting invasion like D Day. He wanted a risk free landing.

That I'd agree with 100%. Sealion certainly wasn't risk-free.

	02-12-2002 07:04									#34
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Revisionists be damned. Hitler is condemned for the bombing of London but the facts are that England was the first to institute mass bombings of civilian targets. Hitler only retalitated.

Germany was the first to bomb civilians - residential areas of London with no military or strategic value were bombed when German planes got lost and dropped their payloads (intended for Rochester docks) on London.

Britain was the first to target civilians - They dropped bombs on Berlin in retaliation for the bombing of London. More British aircrew died (eight in total) from that raid than German civilians. This is in no way mass bombing. Germany retaliated to this by the Blitz, dropping hundreds of thousands of bombs on London and other cities - killing tens of thousands of people.


Conclusion? Britain was not the first to mass bomb civilian targets, but they were the 'first' to intentionally target non-military targets.


Edit - clarity

	02-12-2002 07:05									#35
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Yes, the Norway operation probably had a big influence - the germans lost a lot of ships.

But my point is British capital ships would have been useless - except if the weather closed in - quite likely in the Channel. Then there could have been mayhem.

But you come back to the basic point that Prussians just don't like water.

Amazing how The Channel, that narrow muddy ditch of water, has shaped history. It really was all that stood between Britain and oblivion.

Those who think the British army could have made a stand should go and have look at their equipment establishments in 1940.

	02-12-2002 09:39									#36
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Would Hitler have been better off capturing the Suez canal, crimping or cutting off the flow of raw materials?

	02-12-2002 09:44									#37
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Interesting question Adam. If the Germans hadn't had to worry about the Soviets, they could have crushed the British in North Africa, and gained access to the Suez and middle east quite easily.

	02-12-2002 10:00									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Would Hitler have been better off capturing the Suez canal, crimping or cutting off the flow of raw materials?

The Suez canal was effectively cut off from 1940. All trade went around the Horn of Africa.

	02-12-2002 10:31									#39
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quote: If the Germans hadn't had to worry about the Soviets, they could have crushed the British in North Africa, and gained access to the Suez and middle east quite easily.

Only if the took Malta, and won control of the Med. Almost every Axis convoy from Italy to Africa was hit hard by the British, and supply is one of the big reasons Germany lost in North Africa.

But for the Axis to seize supremacy in the Med, the Italian Navy would have to throw out the Royal Navy. Frankly, this was not going to happen. Even when the RN had two battleships sitting in the mud in Alexandria harbor (as a result of Italian frogmen), the RN was still going after the Regina Maria.

In 1940, British air attacks from a carrier crippled three battleships in Taranto, the main Italian naval base, and in 1941, the Battle of Matapan - a cruisers/destroyer fight - was a major British victory.

The Regina Maria was not going to seriously challenge the Royal Navy after this, and in fact that is one of the reasons Hitler cancelled Herkules (invasion of Malta) - he feared that the Italian Navy would run off at the sight of the British Navy.

	02-12-2002 11:07									#40
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One of Hitler's biggest mistakes of the war, probably his biggest, was not following the "Mediterranean strategy" to defeat Britain. This involved mounting and air and sea blockade on Britain whilst defeating the British forces in the Mediterranean. If Britain had been driven out of the Egypt, the Middle East and India was threatened it is very difficult to see how Churchill's government could have survived. Then Hitler would have had a free hand in Russia.

	02-12-2002 11:29									#41
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I agree, but part of his failure in the Med, IMO, had to do with the Italian Navy and German perceptions of the Italians.

	02-12-2002 11:54									#42
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The Germans did not have even half the Navy they would have needed, Dunkirk was a big mistake, and the Battle of Britain was simply mishandled by Goering.

If 2/3 of the above issues had been addressed/corrected in time, maybe Sealion could have succeeded, but casualties would have been dire in any case. Still, the rest of the British Empire would still pose somewhat of a threat, albeit a very reduced one without England.

	02-12-2002 12:02									#43
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I think Sea Lion would have been a walkover if Hitler had the courage to launch it in 1940. The barriers were mainly psychological i.e. Prussians don't like water.

	02-12-2002 13:40									#44
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If the Germans has won the BoB and then invaded Britain would have sacrificed all the cruisers and destroyers to stop the invasion.
They would have probably stopped the Germans but weakened the fleet to such an extent that the U-boats would have a field day, of courses whether Hitler could have survived the massive losses and blow to his prestige is another matter

	02-12-2002 13:42									#45
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no

didn't I start a thread on this same subject nearly a year ago?

	02-12-2002 13:45									#46
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger If the Germans has won the BoB and then invaded Britain would have sacrificed all the cruisers and destroyers to stop the invasion. They would have probably stopped the Germans but weakened the fleet to such an extent that the U-boats would have a field day, of courses whether Hitler could have survived the massive losses and blow to his prestige is another matter

I don't think a British warship would have got within cooee of the invasion boats. Can you say STUKA?

	02-12-2002 13:49									#47
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they would as england is little and the ships could be stationed very nearby and there were lots of them

Last edited by TheStinger on 02-12-2002 at 14:08

	02-12-2002 13:52									#48
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger they would as england is little and the ships could be staioned very nearby anf there were lots of them

Are you drunk?

	02-12-2002 14:07									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Are you drunk?

no i've just woken up

	02-12-2002 14:59									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse One of Hitler's biggest mistakes of the war, probably his biggest, was not following the "Mediterranean strategy" to defeat Britain. This involved mounting and air and sea blockade on Britain whilst defeating the British forces in the Mediterranean. If Britain had been driven out of the Egypt, the Middle East and India was threatened it is very difficult to see how Churchill's government could have survived. Then Hitler would have had a free hand in Russia.

Probably not for three reasons:

1. German blockades weren't at all effective, in fact it was the Germans who were blockaded. After several sea battles the Germans lacked the ships and planes to do a proper job.

2. The Germans couldn't maintain an army large enough in North Africa. The Brits could always counterattack from India.

3. Stalin was mad, but not stupid.

	02-12-2002 15:14									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Probably not for three reasons: 1. German blockades weren't at all effective, in fact it was the Germans who were blockaded. After several sea battles the Germans lacked the ships and planes to do a proper job.

Germany almost won the Battle of the Atlantic in spite of the limited resources Hitler put into it. We're talking about Hitler using all Germany's resources into defeating Britain over a sustained period, not just a few weeks.

quote: 2. The Germans couldn't maintain an army large enough in North Africa. The Brits could always counterattack from India.

The first point is complete nonsense and the second is utter rubbish

quote: 3. Stalin was mad, but not stupid.

No and he wanted to carve up the world with Hitler. This also fits nicely with the Mediterranean strat Stalin was very keen to agree global spheres of influence with Hitler under the Nazi Soviet Pact. He supplied Hitler's war machine with raw materials right up till Hitler invaded in 1941.

	03-12-2002 00:16									#52
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Does anyone have details of/links to Operation Sealion?

I've never heard of any details except that the assault would be a wide front, with landings ranging from Ramsgate to Southampton.

If you are discussing the feasability of invasion then discuss the feasability of real assaults that were suggested by the Germans.

	03-12-2002 00:27									#53
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it works in axis and allies quite well, both in the classic game and the european version.

	03-12-2002 00:34									#54
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A733565

Here's an informative piece about the BoB and Sealion.

	03-12-2002 00:39									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Yeah actually you have a point... a big point. Napoleon did the same thing... try to attack Britain and Russia, he failed. And yet Hitler failed to realize that. Thanks for pointing that out. But if Hitler would of looked at the teachings of Sun Tzu he would of learned, but he also should of looked at the mistakes of Napoleon.

you think he would dare compare his aryan race to the french? the french?

even if he did recall it, and study it, he was high on power by the time the sh*t went down, and probably would have done it anyway.

If Germany never broke the non-agression pact with Russia it would have got interesting for Britian, but in the end i think it was impossible.

	03-12-2002 01:06									#56
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Stalin was planning on attakcing germany, only later

Jon Miller

	03-12-2002 01:29									#57
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I am also starting to think that way. And even more, I think that the reason Hitler attacked was that he knew he had no choice, he knew that he'd have Stalin lined up against him anyway, and he'd rather have the war on his terms, him having the initiative, rather than being forced to repel a Russian blitz while simultaneously being engaged in a massive operation to invade britain.

	03-12-2002 04:24									#58
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For pity's sake! Germany didn't have any landing craft in 1940, so how could they have invaded England? There was a half-hearted attempt to adapt river barges to the task, but these craft weren't really designed for ocean duty. They would probably have been about as seaworthy as the USS Monitor was in the American Civil War.

	03-12-2002 04:43									#59
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If Germany does not attack the USSR nor declare war on the United States in '41, but continues the build up for an invasion of Britain that potentially takes place in '42 or '43, then Hitler wins WWII.

Even in '41 the majority in the United States remained against getting involved in the European war. While it is true that Germany invaded Poland, the USSR did so as well. Germany and the USSR had a non aggression pact and seemed to be coordinating conquests. It was not clear that a US declaratoin of war on Germany would not also have provoked the USSR to intervene on behalf of Germany. (This, BTW, is what prevented us from going into China during the Korean conflict, or North Vietnam during the Vietnam war - the fear of a wider conflict that we could not win.)

Also, Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around.

Even after the invasion of the USSR and Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt could not get Congress to declare war on Germany. So, a German victory in WWII was a virtual lock had Hitler not been so "stupid."

	03-12-2002 04:54									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove For pity's sake! Germany didn't have any landing craft in 1940, so how could they have invaded England? There was a half-hearted attempt to adapt river barges to the task, but these craft weren't really designed for ocean duty. They would probably have been about as seaworthy as the USS Monitor was in the American Civil War.

The barges were quite sea worthy - many were used for coastal trade. Not much different to the DDay landing craft in terms of sea worthiness - and a shorter crossing.