01-12-2002 12:20									#1
	Operation Sealion: Could it have been pulled off? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Germany's plan to invade the British isles after the fall of France, entitled OperationL Sealion, was not to be. But is there any way the Germans could have done it? I am of the opinion that it would have been quite possible if Germany had concentrated the Luftwaffe on destroying radar stations, harassing the British navy and other important military targets rather than fireboming civillans they would have probably been able to cross the channel. What would have happened from there is harder to predict, quickly capturing the industrial rich cities of southern England and encircling London might have been enough to cause the English to fold, but it is tough to say. Another hypothetical scenario to consider in this discussion what would have happened if the Germans captured the 600,000 man expeditionary force at Dunkirk. With the British army as prisoners, Germany would have had a strong hand on the bargaining table.

	01-12-2002 13:56									#2
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Probably.. but it required Hitler to get over his fear of amphibious invations.

	01-12-2002 14:03									#3
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It would have been a huge gamble and a radical change of Hitler's previous tactics. Unlike (for exanple) Russia, the British defences were well-prepared and dug in hard, and there wouldn't be another "Maginot by-pass" opportunity.

It might have worked, but would most likely have been a Phyrric victory with very heavy losses for relatively little gain. Frankly, it would have been far more sensible to clamp down on the blockade and avoid any catastrophic errors like invading Russia.

	01-12-2002 15:31									#4
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All Hitler ever wanted Germany to be was the equivalent of what England already was. The white dominant world race. Hitler would never have invaded the British Isles.

He aspired to be Britain's partner in world domination. Nothing more but certainly nothing less.

	01-12-2002 15:42									#5
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Not without alien space bats.

	01-12-2002 17:49									#6
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The Battle of Britain was a foregone conclusion, for several reasons.

Firstly, Britain had more fighters than Germany at the start of the campaign, and produced more aircraft than than the Germans.
Britain had an advanced command and control network, far better than anything the Germans had. The German fighters didn't even have radios.
British pilots that were shot down could be returned to the fight reasonably quickly, whilst German pilots ended up in POW camps.
The Germans lacked four-engined bombers. The Junkers 88 could carry 4000lbs of bombs. The Lancaster could carry 20000lbs. The Stuka divebomber took heavy casualties and was soon withdrawn.

If the Germans had managed to destroy the airfields in South-East England, the invasion would still be doomed.

The Royal airforce planned to relocate to the Midlands, and in the event of an invasion, would sweep downwards.
The Royal Navy, which was based at Scapa Flow, would also sweep down to the Channel, regardless of the risk, and attack the German transports.
The Germans had no proper amphibious landing equipment, and planned to use barges from the Rhine. These were scarcely seaworthy, poor weather, let alone ships or planes, would sink them.
The Germans had no dedicated naval air units, and it's unlikely the Luftwaffe could have stopped the RN destroying the barges.
Landing German troops would be confronted with barbed wire, mine fields, poision gas, anti-tank obstacles and over 25000 pillboxes.

	01-12-2002 17:51									#7
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Well what about the V1s and V2s? If Germany redirected those a bit differently, they could of made a mess of the British military.

	01-12-2002 18:21									#8
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The V weapons did not appear until after the Battle of Britain was won.

	01-12-2002 18:36									#9
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Oh, thanks for clearing that up. Well Hitler could of gone back and started using it against Britain.

	01-12-2002 19:01									#10
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I dunno. If Goebbels didn't **** up at Dunkirk (English sp?) and the Luftwaffe concentrated on the English radar installations and airfields instead of London they might have pulled it of. Thankfully we will never know.

	01-12-2002 19:04									#11
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What happens if the Germans would of won the war all together? Questions like that should remain unanswered and unknown.

	01-12-2002 19:13									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Fez What happens if the Germans would of won the war all together? Questions like that should remain unanswered and unknown.

For one, the Jewish people would have been exterminated And there were some vague plans to relocate the Dutch to the Crimea after the original people there were... [I leave that to your imagination...]

	01-12-2002 19:52									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Fez What happens if the Germans would of won the war all together? Questions like that should remain unanswered and unknown.

Probably a big european facist state for couple of decade followed by a revolution at some point.

Same would have been true with soviet union conquered the world. No government regime is permeanant...

For the Jew question, probably more would have been executed, or maybe less.. since they were speeding up the execution at the end of the war. Jews would not have been 'extinct' though, there were Jews living outside of Europe too.

	01-12-2002 20:20									#14
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The only way the Germans could have invaded Britain is if they had gained air superiority over the RAF. Since the British had better planes, were for warned of any German attacks by radar, and the Germans had half their air force in eastern Europe it is unlikely they would ever have gained the necisary air cover to make a successful landing.

	01-12-2002 20:28									#15
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Many jews left Germany before the whole war started... and before they were put in concentration camps.

I think Hitler would of ruled Europe for a few decades too if he won the war... maybe up to the mid 1960s, when he would be forced to give up some of his occupied land because of revolution. Thank goodness that didn't happen and the allies defeated the nazis.

	01-12-2002 22:37									#16
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highly doubt it

	01-12-2002 22:48									#17
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post by CalcII:

Probably a big european facist state for couple of decade followed by a revolution at some point.

post by fez, not long after:

I think Hitler would of ruled Europe for a few decades too if he won the war... maybe up to the mid 1960s, when he would be forced to give up some of his occupied land because of revolution.

stop parroting fez.

	02-12-2002 00:03									#18
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No, I don't think Sealion was possible. Lack of amphibious assets, lack of enough air assets, lack of naval assets, lack of naval air arm, etc., would have doomed any attempt to failure.

	02-12-2002 00:22									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus post by CalcII: Probably a big european facist state for couple of decade followed by a revolution at some point. post by fez, not long after: I think Hitler would of ruled Europe for a few decades too if he won the war... maybe up to the mid 1960s, when he would be forced to give up some of his occupied land because of revolution. stop parroting fez.

Just agreeing. Not parroting. Get a clue.

Don't you do that all the time? After all you are always listening and regurgitating your rhetoric from leftist groups who you seem to love. I have heard of enough of it!

	02-12-2002 00:23									#20
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In retrospect, it was Germany's only hope in winning the war. However, considering what it took the Allies to do to invade France in '44, the Germans should have invested what was necessary to carry the invasion off even if they had to wait 'til '43 to do it. They would have needed supremacy, air and sea, in the Channel.

But in order to make this kind of investment, they would have had to keep both the US and the USSR out of the war. Hitler's decisionmaking in '41 was a disaster.

	02-12-2002 00:31									#21
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Hitler had one of the strongest militaries in 1941... it was his fault for squandering it along with much of his high command. His high command were some of the stupidest idiots... they led good (and frankly stunning) commanders like Erwin Rommel to failure.

	02-12-2002 00:36									#22
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The main problem, IMO, with people like Keitel and Jodl is that they buckled under to Hitler too often - they were often more concerned with their position than what was best for the German military and Germany in general.

	02-12-2002 00:38									#23
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Also that idiot Goering only cared about himself aswell..... placing him head of the Luftwaffe was the most idiotic thing Hitler could of done.

	02-12-2002 04:54									#24
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There is a fairly good simulation of Sealion by Game Designers Workshop (it's a long out of print board wargame). It was part of the original Europa series, which recreated WW2 on the Western Front at division (and less) scale, 2 week turns.

There is also a typically shoddy game by Simulations Publications Incorporated (SPI) called Seelowe, which sucked.

I agree with the consensus, which is to say that while a successful invasion was possible, it was far from likely, even if the right steps were taken.

	02-12-2002 05:03									#25
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If Hitler and his high command were reading Art of War by Sun Tzu, Europe would of been in real trouble. Hitler probably would of never invaded Russia (which probably cost him the war) and would of fought the Afrika war differently by not giving Rommel to little to fight with.

	02-12-2002 05:08									#26
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Don't you think he should've recalled all the lessons of Napoleon instead of Sun Tzu?

	02-12-2002 05:13									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch Don't you think he should've recalled all the lessons of Napoleon instead of Sun Tzu?

Yeah actually you have a point... a big point. Napoleon did the same thing... try to attack Britain and Russia, he failed. And yet Hitler failed to realize that. Thanks for pointing that out. But if Hitler would of looked at the teachings of Sun Tzu he would of learned, but he also should of looked at the mistakes of Napoleon.

	02-12-2002 05:52									#28
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I can't see an invasion of Britain working. First, I don't think the Germans would have been able to establish a beachead. As mentioned, the Brits had some serious technological and tactical advantages, were dug in but good, and would probably pull out all the stops in case of invasion (ie: gas). Second, even if the Germans did manage to land, I don't think the British would be as quick to surrender as other western European states. Something tells me there would be way more resistance and willingness to absorb losses.

	02-12-2002 05:56									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Oh, thanks for clearing that up. Well Hitler could of gone back and started using it against Britain.

Hitler did use V1s and V2s against Britain. About 3,000 V1s and 1,400 V2s.

They weren't developed until 1944/5 by which point the Normandy landings had occurred.

	02-12-2002 05:58									#30
	Re: Operation Sealion: Could it have been pulled off? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by monkspider What would have happened from there is harder to predict, quickly capturing the industrial rich cities of southern England and encircling London might have been enough to cause the English to fold, but it is tough to say.

Which industrially rich cities are you refering to?