03-12-2002 05:40									#61
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I recall reading somewhere that the Germans didn't figure out the effectiveness of divebombing against moving ships until 1941. So, the Stukas might not have done much against the Royal Navy.

I disagree about the British being well dug in. They had little equipment after Dunkerque, and were pretty disorganized. If the Germans had managed to get even a token, mobile force across the Channel, they probably would have run roughshod over the British defences, the way Rommel did in late 1940 in Egypt. The downside is... no sea cover, no air cover... no way to keep that token force supplied.

	03-12-2002 05:59									#62
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Another authorative essay for the ignorami:

http://gateway.alternatehistory.com/essays/Sealion.html

	03-12-2002 06:07									#63
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The british would have almost certainly repelled nazi germany with their magic ways and reanimated suits of armor

	03-12-2002 06:11									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Another authorative essay for the ignorami: http://gateway.alternatehistory.com/essays/Sealion.html

Apparently an authority without a name, or sources.

	03-12-2002 06:36									#65
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Try these for size:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/ww...on_ww2_02.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/ww...britain_1.shtml

I would like to see detailed essays on why Sealion would have succeeded, but there don't seem to be any.

	03-12-2002 07:02									#66
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Until 1940, the Maginot line was impenetrable, too.

I'm not saying Sealion would have worked (see my post, above), but the British army was in sorry shape after the Dunkerque evacuation, and it wouldn't have been quite so cut and dried as British academicians and alternate universe theorists would have us believe.

And in retrospect, Hitler would have been better off trying and failing, than not trying at all.

	03-12-2002 07:18									#67
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The Germans were winning the Battle of Britain until they switched to targetting civilians (btw, it was not Britain who first targetted civilians, but the Germans, who bombed Warsaw). If they had continued on this strategy, they would eventually have forced Britain to come to terms, probably without even risking an invasion. Once the Nazis had air superiority, success in the Channel and in England would be a foregone conclusion. Churchill might say never surrender, but in the face of total defeat, I doubt they would have carried on.

The war with the USSR would have happened regardless. In 1940, the USSR occupied Bessarbia and the Baltics, in preparation of war with the Nazis. Stalin, while helping the Nazis out, was preparing his own war, and would have launched an attack in 1944 or 1945.

All that knocking Britain out of the war would have done is keep the US from having a staging area in Europe. The US still would likely have occupied North Africa, though it would have been harder without Monty pushing from Africa. The US just would have had a much harder fight, and the US and USSR would defat the Nazis in 1945 or 1946 anyway, especially once atomic bombs began falling in Germany.

	03-12-2002 07:27									#68
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The US still would likely have occupied North Africa, though it would have been harder without Monty pushing from Africa. The US just would have had a much harder fight, and the US and USSR would defat the Nazis in 1945 or 1946 anyway, especially once atomic bombs began falling in Germany.

That's an awfully long supply line for the USA, che... and based on US military thinking, they probably wouldn't have attempted Africa, first (the US high command favoured the early direct cross-channel invasion in 1943, remember). Probably no US invasion until 1944-5, by which time the USSR would have already turned the tide, or lost outright.

	03-12-2002 07:32									#69
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 The british would have almost certainly repelled nazi germany with their magic ways and reanimated suits of armor

So I wasn't the only one thinking of that movie.

	03-12-2002 07:37									#70
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That link reinforces my original thinking that Hitler had no choice but to build up to Sea Lion just as the Allies built up to D-Day. They needed long range fighters and long range bombers to attack the Northern airbases, fleet anchorages and aircraft production. They also needed a horde of transport ships and landing craft, just as did the allies in '44. Finally, they needed torpedo airpower in force to take out any British naval vessels heading for the English Channel.

It may have taken them two or more years to assemble the necessary equipment. I believe they could have had the necessary equipment by '43.

	03-12-2002 08:19									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I recall reading somewhere that the Germans didn't figure out the effectiveness of divebombing against moving ships until 1941.

This is the point I made earlier. The main thing that saved Britain was the potency of air power against ships had not yet been recognised. The land battle would have been a doddle.

	03-12-2002 08:25									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse This is the point I made earlier. The main thing that saved Britain was the potency of air power against ships had not yet been recognised. The land battle would have been a doddle.

Sorry, didn't read your post AH. Yourself was not the 'somewhere' that I was referring to Nonetheless, you did say it first.

	03-12-2002 08:47									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns So I wasn't the only one thinking of that movie.

I was wondering if anyone would call me on that!
One of Disney's best, if I say so myself…

	03-12-2002 09:19									#74
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Was Angela Landsbury even alive during WWII?

	03-12-2002 09:22									#75
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Actually during the first few weeks of the Battle of Britain the Germans did indeed deploy their Stukas against British coastal shipping. They were less effective than hoped for because many of the coastal transports were fairly small and therefore able to manuever. Stukas really weren't all that great of a naval dive bomber. It was apparently difficult for them to stay locked onto a moving target. Furthermore they were extremely vulnerable to fighters. The Germans had thought at the outset that they could use the Stukas as bait to draw out the British fighters which their fighters would chew up, but it didn't work that way because the Brits eventually improved out their command and control enabling them to usually acheive local superiority. Even when British fighters couldn't beat up the German fighters they could seperate them from the Stukas and have a field day destroying the bombers. Apparently British fighters were better able to follow the Stukas on their steep descent bombing runs than were the Messerschmidts.

	03-12-2002 09:27									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I believe they could have had the necessary equipment by '43.

At least a full year after the US entered the war. By the time Germany would have been able to contest British superiority in the seas enough to launch an invasion the US would have been in full swing.

As far as Hitler having to invade Russia preemptively, there isn't much evidence that Stalin wanted to fight him. Stalin seemed quite content with his own massive empire, and didn't want to risk war with the Nazis.

	03-12-2002 09:29									#77
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 I was wondering if anyone would call me on that! One of Disney's best, if I say so myself…

I used to watch Bedknobs and Broomsticks once a week when I was a kid. Loved it, loved it, loved it. Especially when the magic knights chase the Nazis out of England...

	03-12-2002 10:24									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Was Angela Landsbury even alive during WWII?

I think she was in her early 60s in WWII...

	03-12-2002 11:40									#79
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I'm still shocked that Boris loves a movie about a magic knob...

	03-12-2002 11:55									#80
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It wasn't about knobs ya farkin bivouac!

	03-12-2002 12:08									#81
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It was very much about knobs; the title is proof of that. Maybe your love for Bedknobs and Broomsticks has exposed some "issues" you need to address.

	03-12-2002 12:13									#82
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quote: (btw, it was not Britain who first targetted civilians, but the Germans, who bombed Warsaw)

Guernica?

	03-12-2002 13:24									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Germany almost won the Battle of the Atlantic in spite of the limited resources Hitler put into it. We're talking about Hitler using all Germany's resources into defeating Britain over a sustained period, not just a few weeks.

Almost? In what sense? The German surface ships were readily defeated. If not for the U-boat captains resourcefulness, it would have been a devestating defeat for Hitler. The Mediterranean strategy would almost be a total failure. Hitler needed to divide his forces into two parts, one to suppress the North Atlantic/British Channel activities and the other to use in the Mediterranean.

If he didn't pin NA/BC the Brits would just keep harassing Germany - Lancaster bombers over Berlin. Oh joy If he did he would need a much bigger air force and surface fleet to do the job.

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The first point is complete nonsense and the second is utter rubbish

How would he sustain the supplies in NA, Horsie? Considering how many Indian soldiers were in the British army it is quite conceivable to attack Middle East from India.

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse No and he wanted to carve up the world with Hitler. This also fits nicely with the Mediterranean strat Stalin was very keen to agree global spheres of influence with Hitler under the Nazi Soviet Pact. He supplied Hitler's war machine with raw materials right up till Hitler invaded in 1941.

Probably not. Stalin was just biding time until he could launch his invasion. That's why Hitler attacked when he wasn't quite ready - just look at those crappy tanks. In fact, when a Soviet delegate checking out the German tank factories reported back to Stalin that the Nazis were hiding stuff, Hilter got worried. It meant the Soviets got better tanks.

	03-12-2002 13:44									#84
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The wholw point about sealion was they coudn't even think about without air superiority. Without it the Royal navy would have made mincermeat out the german landing force.

Even if they had air superiority the navy would have sacrificed the destroyer and cruiser force to stop the invasion. Then if the germans got ashore the British were well dug in with the remaining armoured forces held in reserve to attack any break out. in 1940 German tanks wern't better than the British ones.

Also a German victory in the BoB would not mean the entire airforce was destroyed and the british light bomber force was being held in reserve to attack any invasion.

Having said all that had Halifax become prome minister we would have just given up and the Germans wouldn't have had to bother

	03-12-2002 13:49									#85
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What? How could a city in Nova Scotia become Prime Minister?

	03-12-2002 14:02									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What? How could a city in Nova Scotia become Prime Minister?

well the current system wasn't working so they thought of a radical solution.

	03-12-2002 15:54									#87
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger The wholw point about sealion was they coudn't even think about without air superiority. Without it the Royal navy would have made mincermeat out the german landing force.

They could easily achieve local air superiority over the channel.

quote: Even if they had air superiority the navy would have sacrificed the destroyer and cruiser force to stop the invasion.

Wouldn't have achieved anything.

quote: Then if the germans got ashore the British were well dug in with the remaining armoured forces held in reserve to attack any break out.

They weren't well dug in and there weren't any tanks left after Dunkirk.

quote: in 1940 German tanks wern't better than the British ones.

Rubbish. Britain didn't produce a decent tank for the entire war.

quote: Also a German victory in the BoB would not mean the entire airforce was destroyed and the british light bomber force was being held in reserve to attack any invasion.

Dream on. You mean like the British light bomber force stopped the German breakthrough in France?

quote: Having said all that had Halifax become prome minister we would have just given up and the Germans wouldn't have had to bother

At last agreement And if Germany had ever taken the war in the Middle East seriously Churchill would have fallen and Halifax or someone like him would have been Prime Minister.

	03-12-2002 16:17									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse [QUOTE] [SIZE=1] They could easily achieve local air superiority over the channel.

Not if the RAF has won the BoB thats the point.

quote: [SIZE=1] Wouldn't have achieved anything.

Other tahn sinking the invasion force

quote: [SIZE=1] They weren't well dug in and there weren't any tanks left after Dunkirk.

Britain lost most not all its tanks, it had at least an armoured corps left. There were still alot of troops and they had weapons. The problem was transport more than guns. They couldn't go on the offensive but they could fight a defensive battle. The south of England is still full of the defences thrown up in 1940, back then it looke like the Maginot line in places.

quote: [SIZE=1] Rubbish. Britain didn't produce a decent tank for the entire war.

The Matilda was a match for any German tank in 1940

quote: [SIZE=1] Dream on. You mean like the British light bomber force stopped the German breakthrough in France?

They would have been cut to pieces but they also would have been bombing a concentrated area they couldn't miss

quote: [SIZE=1] At last agreement And if Germany had ever taken the war in the Middle East seriously Churchill would have fallen and Halifax or someone like him would have been Prime Minister.

Its a fallacy to say the Germans didn't take it seriously, they didn't send as many than as to Russia but they sent more than a few hunderd hitler youth.

	03-12-2002 16:42									#89
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This page addresses most of the points being made in this thread.