03-12-2002 11:04									#1
	Civ3 scenarios :rolleyes: Increase the size of your Attachments

I was glancing through the civ3 files forum tonight, and I found it amazing that only 3 scenarios have been released for civ3!

None of the scenarios (based upon their descriptions) come even close to an average civ2 scenario. There is one scenario where you start with 10 cities and a bunch of units, but it has no real historical or fantasy or any other real plot behind it. The other two are generously called scenarios, i would call them mods, myself.

My question is, have any of you tried making a civ3 scenario? Is it really that much harder to make a scenario than in civ2? Did they ever add an events handling?

Scenarios are what keep me playing civ2, and with civ3 having such poor choices in scenarios, I've been able to fully repress any desire to reinstall civ3. Thank god I won't be wasting my money on Play the World

	03-12-2002 12:47									#2
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There are no events handling in Civ 3, the units on a whole are harder to make because they are 3D and there is no way to set diplomacy from the start.

Hopefully, they'll eventually get it right.

Pap

	03-12-2002 19:49									#3
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quote: Hopefully, they'll eventually get it right. Pap

I'm not looking forward to it. that would mean the end of civ2 world.

	03-12-2002 20:28									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson I'm not looking forward to it. that would mean the end of civ2 world.

wouldn't it mean that we would then have a powerful editor in a more recent game? If thye finally get it right, then there is no real reason to continue civ2, besides nostalgia anyways

	03-12-2002 20:40									#5
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once they get it right I think most of us will play civ3/make scenarios for it. But for now, its crap in its current state. Hm, where did i put that game anyway? Anyways, lets continue making scenarios and playing civ2. ok!

	03-12-2002 23:27									#6
	Hmmmmm. Increase the size of your Attachments

Several things pop into my mind after reading this thread;

1.) Fircrapsis. When has this company ever been able to get anything right? Nuff said.

2.) What H Tower said--It would mean a better game . . . IF they got it right. See # 1 above; fat chance.

3.) I'm not sure that anyone is going to be able to replace Civ2 in its scenario-making function anytime soon. Creating FW and MGE was a stroke of genius (courtesy of Microprose), and those come along only so often.

My ultimate sentiment is; let the marketplace perform its function. If a truly better game than Civ2 comes along, I'll go with that and won't look back. I've been waiting now for several years for a better game to come along, however, and I don't see one on the horizon yet.

	04-12-2002 02:43									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It certainly seems like PTW has been a disarster for the company - I wonder if they bothered testing it?

	04-12-2002 02:46									#8
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Well, I admit I like the game, and to some extent also the editor *runs*

Of course, the lack of something like events language is a huge disadvantage, I just hope Firaxis can add this still with another patch (or another expansion). If not, all you can make is nice modpacks, but not scns.

One thing that is just horrible with Civ3 is the amount of work when you plan to reach a similar level of customized stuff compared to good Civ2 scenarios. I´m working on an big Civ3 X-COM mod for months now, and still there is no end in sight...

	04-12-2002 04:44									#9
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just a mod BeBro? no map or placed cities or units?

	04-12-2002 06:13									#10
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Hey everyone,

I have been playing Civ III since it came out, and since this time I have been trying desperatly to create a WWII scenario. As mentioned before everything is harder to do because of hoe graphic intensive things are and because of restricted code. It is possible to make a scenario, but the amount of work to do so makes it almost not worth it.

To state things simply, after a year of trying to make a successful WWII scenario I finally quit in disgust and found everthing I could ever have wanted in the Civ II community. You should have seen the amount of dust on my Civ II disc

	04-12-2002 06:27									#11
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower just a mod BeBro? no map or placed cities or units?

Well, ok, I never understood the basic difference between mod and scn, it seems there are a billion of different definitions...

It´ll have an own map ("own" means not created by myself ), preplaced cities, and the usual stuff (10 -12 civs, customized techs, units, civilopedia etc., a lot of new gfx). I just hesitate to call it scenario, because the lack of events, diplo control, civ-specific tech trees - all these things are currently impossible in Civ3. OTOH some things are pretty easy to realize, eg. civ-specific units, which are of course needed to have special units only for xcom or the aliens.

	04-12-2002 08:48									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

just a mod BeBro? no map or placed cities or units?

BTW, Spanish Pride and Seeds of Greatness are usually considered mods rather than scenarios.

	04-12-2002 11:04									#13
	Re: Hmmmmm. Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Exile 1.) Fircrapsis. When has this company ever been able to get anything right? Nuff said.

I'd argue that point (none of the others though ) with Smac/X I think. Unit workshops, Social engineering and the multitude of possibilities that just aren't available even with Civ2. The lack of any form of event scripting or modability does let it down though.
I just can't figure out how they managed to fall so far with Civ3.

quote: I've been waiting now for several years for a better game to come along, however, and I don't see one on the horizon yet.

Seen HoI yet? Its out in certain places (Not over here yet though). AI doesn't look to good at the moment and the gameplay is still being tweaked but it shows a lot of promise for WW2 fans. Paradox has become known for their efforts in the patching field so many of its problems should be fixed in short order.

quote: Of course, the lack of something like events language is a huge disadvantage, I just hope Firaxis can add this still with another patch (or another expansion). If not, all you can make is nice modpacks, but not scns.

I have a bad feeling that this just isn't going to happen. There was a quote (real or attributed - I'm not sure which) from one of the devs that, well, to put it mildly, made light of the value of such a tool and modders abilities to use it. AFAIK this wasn't refuted so I greatly doubt we'll see one in the near future...

	04-12-2002 14:26									#14
	Re: Re: Hmmmmm. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by ravagon I just can't figure out how they managed to fall so far with Civ3.

SMAC wasn't a franchise game, so they had to produce a first class product in order to shift units. With Civ, all they needed to do was put out a box bearing the magic words "Sid Mier's Civilisation X'

	04-12-2002 19:00									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by H Tower wouldn't it mean that we would then have a powerful editor in a more recent game? If thye finally get it right, then there is no real reason to continue civ2, besides nostalgia anyways

Once again; the reason is that the best scenarios were made for civ2. Abandoning civ2 is like demolishing Eiffel tower to build a new, "better", one.

	04-12-2002 19:05									#16
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quote: I´m working on an big Civ3 X-COM

Civ2 Traitor.

	04-12-2002 21:54									#17
	Re: Re: Re: Hmmmmm. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Case SMAC wasn't a franchise game, so they had to produce a first class product in order to shift units. With Civ, all they needed to do was put out a box bearing the magic words "Sid Mier's Civilisation X'

100% agree!

With all the screw ups with Civ3, I wonder if Civ2 was actually designed by Sid Meier or just slaped his name on the product because of the license issues?

	04-12-2002 23:37									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I think that is what happened. From what I remember, Sid did not do any programming, but instead he was a special consusltant to the project, so he got his name on it.

Some may argue that the real genius is Brian Reynolds...

Pap

	07-12-2002 19:41									#19
	Tired of ads?

Just got pointed at this Gamespy article:


The Shape of Mods to Come
A look at the future of user-made game modifications.
By Tom Chick | Dec. 3, 2002

It's at:

http://www.gamespy.com/futureofgaming/mods/

It's mostly about generalities (and First Person Shooters) but Civ III comes up on page 2:

"The time involved in engineering a game to be friendly to mod makers is significant," says Firaxis' Jeff Morris, the producer for Civilization III, "To be done efficiently, it needs to be done on the front end. Retrofitting a game that isn't mod friendly to be mod friendly isn't a trivial task."


So he's not saying that it will never get done, but it doesn't sound like anyone should be holding their breath.

	08-12-2002 09:29									#20
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what he's saying is that he never planned on making it mod maker friendly

	08-12-2002 13:00									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

HoI is a great game. The AI may lack a bit, but in its stupidity you can make it more aggressive to make up for it.

	08-12-2002 20:29									#22
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower what he's saying is that he never planned on making it mod maker friendly

Well, I would not say it is totally mod-"unfriendly", you can edit lots of stuff even in the current Civ3/PtW, and in some fields the options are better than in Civ2.

However, without events and diplo control the chances to make especially historic scns with a similar fun-factor compared to Civ2 are quite low, unfortunately...

	13-12-2002 03:43									#23
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Civ3 hasn't lived up to expectations in the MOD community, that's the plain truth. Add to that the fact that Firaxis made it clear in numerous online chats they're no fans of script languages and not planning implementing any for Civ3 makes prospects for proper "Civ2"-like scenarios slim to none. Civ2 started out with a basic script language which was enhanced in CoC and FW. There's no sign of that in the Civ3...

Civ3 maps and mods? Yes.

Proper Scenarios? Not really.

Last edited by CapTVK on 13-12-2002 at 03:51

	13-12-2002 06:06									#24
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if that's the truth, then my interest in civ3 is now dead and gone for all eternity

	13-12-2002 07:15									#25
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I think my interest died about 5 hours after installing it. +2 min for the uninstall.

	13-12-2002 08:28									#26
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i hadn't given up hope, but then PtW came out and still nothing. i tried to be optomistic

	13-12-2002 11:26									#27
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It's hard to believe that limiting the oportunities for mod making was a good commercial decision. Mod-friendly games like Half Life are still selling strongly on the back of the mod community. In addition, making games mod-friendly is important in building up good will towards the game company responcible.

	13-12-2002 13:25									#28
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it also prolongs the life of the game, that way fans aren't screaming for the next game in the series while you're still in development.

but what do we know? we aren't a big software company...

	13-12-2002 14:54									#29
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Judging from the cock up they appear to have made of PTW, I don't think that we should expect too much from infogames and/or Firaxis.

	13-12-2002 16:35									#30
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Told you so.