10-12-2002 20:13									#91
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Nice guess.

I doubt I'm the first person to devise this strategy, but I was the first to give it a really stupid name

	10-12-2002 23:10									#92
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It's one of the most brilliant acronyms ever IMO!

Well done Dominae. Your screenshot of all the German units looks much like my map did right before my demise... Only Bismark had the Knights, and I didn't have all that many Horsemen.

	10-12-2002 23:16									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Well done Dominae. Your screenshot of all the German units looks much like my map did right before my demise... Only Bismark had the Knights, and I didn't have all that many Horsemen.

Thanks Aeson. News of your demise makes me fear Deity even more...perhaps I will forever remain an Emperor player. Would you say Germany is the toughest civ on Deity, because of the aggressiveness?


Dominae

	10-12-2002 23:44									#94
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The Germans are certainly the one most likely to ruin a Deity game. Like I said, that game should have been lost by 2000BC, it was just fantastic luck that I survived. The Zulu have the same aggressiveness, but don't seem as likely to go for the kill from the start. Of course I've ran into the Greeks and French sending their starting units from turn 1, not sure just why it happens. In Deity games, if you can make it past the early portion of the game it's almost always possible to win.

It really was the Greeks who did me in, I didn't expect them to come calling and so wasn't prepared. It was just a mistake on my part, spreading myself too thin by going after the Iroquois, then completely exposing myself by cutting off my Iron and building Horsemen.

	11-12-2002 09:27									#95
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I've been more pessimistic than need be -- perhaps due to the German rush in my first attempt (and the fact that I saw it coming and was fooled nonetheless).

Despite my trading (reputation) hell which prevents mixing and matching per-turn and upfront assets in the same trade deal, I was eventually able to buy Monotheism at about 700 gold, and, shortly after the Iroquois helpfully built Sun Tzu's just across the border, Feudalism for about 600 gold. Germany declared war on the Greeks. I have about 600 gold, 13 turns to Chivalry, and 25 horsemen waiting for upgrades just outside the Iroquois Sun Tzu city. An Ansar rush, with a GA, should cement my position (although it's been an awful long time since I didn't have a library in 500 AD (I haven't discovered Literature). A map, not much changed from the last I posted, is below.

Catt

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	11-12-2002 09:43									#96
	Espionage Bug? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I was willing to spend the gold to investigate a few cities and get a sense on Sistine production -- as a Religious civ with a large continent, I want Sistine.

Countering my run of luck with this AU game, Salamanca will complete Sistine in 12 turns -- I will have Chivalry in 13 turns (and have a good-sized force ready for conquest). Greece's Sistine is 25+ turns away. But Germany just started Sistine as well, and I wanted to get a sense of completion date. Unfortunately, although Leipzig is working on Sistine, Leipzig doesn't show up in the German "investigate city" list?? I loaded the editor and confirmed that Leipzig should be the 2nd city in the German city list. Any guess as to why I shouldn't have access to Leipzig (keeping in mind that I have about 600 gold in the treasury)?

Catt

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	11-12-2002 21:24									#97
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Catt,

I think I've seen this too... can you see Leipzig on the map (do you have Bizzie's territory map)? If not, that may explain it. I've met civs from overseas and made an embassy but did not yet have their maps, and the only city available for investigation was the capitol.

-Arrian

	11-12-2002 21:53									#98
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I'm sort of done

This AU mod is really, really an improvement. Kudos to all who put in the hard work.

The Arabs got all the wonders starting with US. Longevity is quite powerful and the pop grew nicely. ToE cemented a tech lead. We've ground down Germany and Japan to stubs and Greece is ours.

The improved perforance of the AI is visible, however, since the Babs are creeping back up in the tech race. We are about to finish the internet, which should finish that race as well.

As long as I'm having fun, let's go visit the Babs.

Questions: will I be able to land wheeled mechanized infantry armies on the Babs coastal mountains if they have built roads on those mountains? And, do you think a few carriers with jets parked in the first coastal square will protect the landing from aircraft bombardment under the new mod rules?

	12-12-2002 00:05									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Catt, I think I've seen this too... can you see Leipzig on the map (do you have Bizzie's territory map)? If not, that may explain it. I've met civs from overseas and made an embassy but did not yet have their maps, and the only city available for investigation was the capitol. -Arrian

Will have to check tonight when I get home (although, looking at the minimap in my screenshots, I'll bet Leipzig, as city #2, falls right in the little black hole in German territory on my map).

I've never noticed that quirk before but seems to be as good an explanation as I can imagine.

Catt

	12-12-2002 02:48									#100
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I haven't noticed anyone else mention this, but I was curious if anyone else was having the same issue. In my AU game (Reagent, Americans, AU Mod), the Greeks have been amazingly aggressive. I ignored them in the early game as I dealt with pushing the Iroquois off of what should clearly be my territory, but then around the age of feudalism, I was quite suprised to see an endless stream of light green med. inf. and horsemen, etc, come swarming up through my lands, past me, and onto the Germans. Since that point in the game, (I'm now in 1840), the Greeks have declared war on me twice, the Germans more times than I can count, and everyone else in the world a few times as well. They haven't built a single wonder, they have a laughable amount of culture, and they build nothing but military units.

In all the games I have played, I have never seen the Greeks act like this. Is this a change in the AI because of the mod, or something with the new PTW patch?

	12-12-2002 03:09									#101
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In my game, the Greeks attacked the Germans relentlessly, even after I cancelled our Alliance. This wasn't surprising to me because I've encountered the Greek "mean streak" before. I think we're still trying to figure out the changes in 1.14, and playing with the AU mod doesn't make this easier.


Dominae

	12-12-2002 03:49									#102
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I don't believe there is anything in the AU mod that would cause such a behavior from the Greeks. In fact, I don't even think it's PTW either, since Aeson experinced it in standard 1.29f.

It might have something to do with their poor starting location. If that's the case, that's really good AI behavior.

Last edited by alexman on 12-12-2002 at 06:03

	12-12-2002 05:15									#103
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Yup

You will find quite a few stories about the apparent increase in warlike behavior of the PTW AI if you rummage around the boards in recent threads. I belive the human player will benefit from this on higher levels. It slows down research and makes it easier to pit one against the other.

	12-12-2002 21:04									#104
	Genghis Fred, Part One Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It took me a little while to get to this game, but it's been a fun one.
I decided to try out the mod, and so played at Monarchy level.

Early scouting a la Aeson netted a settler, an inconvinently distant city, and several techs. And of course (as you all know by now) uncovered the Germas to the north, the Iroquois and Greeks to the south. I tried to optimize production and growth and settle across the middle band of the continent.

Characteristically, Bismark declared war early. That first round was relatively easily staved off. Then he came again, in a horse rush that required some serious scrambling. I decided that the next time I was going to need some help, and set up embassies with the southern powers.

Meanwhile, I settled on a larger strategy. Managed to land the Great Library via pre-building, so I dialed science down to one beaker and began to amass gold, figuring I'd keep Bismark at bay via alliances and limited military efforts, and meanwhile accumulate a mass of horsemen in preperation for chivalry via the GL, and a Golden Age whomp.

Here's an early screenshot:

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	12-12-2002 21:17									#105
	Genghis Fred, Part Two Got spare money?

Things did not exactly go according to plan. I did get an early leader, built the Heroic Epic, and fished out a few number of leaders in the chronic warfare that ensued. And I did pull the Iroquois and the Greeks into a triple alliance against the Germans.
But I was surprised to see just how many purple swordsmen came marching up through my territory to give the Germans battle. The Iroquois even took several German cities along my northern border. At that point I decided I needed to slow the Iroquois down. Luckily, I had not signed an ROP, and was able to set up friendly blockades and long detours so that I could let the Germans retake cities, then take them myself. ("Oh, I'm sorry, Hiawatha. Are my workers in your way. Just let me finish this mining project, and then your swordsmen may pass." )

That much went well. But other parts of my strategy ran into problems. The Iroquois began to pull away technologically: the wars significantly slowed German and Greek research, apparently. Which made my Great Library rather unproductive.
Realizing I needed to make new contacts, I began building suicide galleys -- figuring the payoff would come in techs.
But the mod made deepwater sailing especially treacherous. After several tries, I realized I had made a mistake. Dialed research back up and began beelining for Chivalry.
Meanwhile, the Iroquois built Sistine's Chapel. I hate missing that one.

Here's a screenshot. Notice all the purple swordsmen working their way patiently and slowly around my blocking units. Also notice I'm building a galley, which of course is doomed to sinking.

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	12-12-2002 21:27									#106
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I had waited too long on Chivalry, I think, and let the Iroquois get too big and comfortable. When my keshiks did come on line, I made peace with Bismark and amassed the bulk of my military along the southern border. When everything was in place, I declared war on the Iroquois. Battles were bloody, and I did some serious damage, but did not press in for serious territorial advantage. This, too, may have been a mistake.
But Germany looked so vulnerable, without iron, that I decided to wheel around after bringing Hiawatha to terms, and seize the northern part of the continent.
Meanwhile, via leaders, wonders, and general building, I managed to bring a solid, competitive, infra-structured, fully developed civ on line. By the time the other civs had established contact, I was fully in control of the game economically and scientifically.
Now I suppose I'll have to grind my way through the Iroquois. It will be bloody and messy, but the game is basically in hand.

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	12-12-2002 22:10									#107
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Quick notes on my game: more to come later (after my exams (wed.))
- Played as the Americans, regent Civ3.
- Early war on the Iroquois crippled them, lone warrior passing near an undefended Athens crippled Greece too. Both respawned. Iroquois was killed off but I kept Greece alive to act as a buffer between Germany and me.
- I then got plenty of room in which to expand which made the Americans a powerhouse.
- Recently finished the Germans (they are OCC on the little island with an Egyptian city) and I am in control of my continent (even if the Babs slipped 2 cities on the southwestern tip.
- The Japs got killed by (mostly) Egypt and a little bit of Babylon
- The French got nailed by the Babs.
- I think I will go for Domination, as I ponder which civ to attack next.
- Just got to steam power, industrious kicks in again!
- I made only once huge mistake: my FP placement is absolutely horrible. It's too central to allow any kind of palace move... If I restart (and I probably will, playing as England...) I will try to improve a lot on this!

--Kon--

	12-12-2002 22:26									#108
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Konquest02 - Your game sounds too easy. I think you should be playing on Monarch.

edit: removed the y

Last edited by Jawa Jocky on 12-12-2002 at 22:59

	12-12-2002 22:30									#109
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Just thought I'd get something off my chest before it drives me crazy:

In Civ3, 'Monarchy' is a government, and 'Monarch' is a difficulty level. Liberal use of the wrong term may not be confusing to some, but it has confused me on many an occasion.


Dominae

	12-12-2002 23:02									#110
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Dominae: point taken.

Too bad "Deity" is not a government choice.

	13-12-2002 12:03									#111
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Finally got some play time in this evening. At my last report, I was a dozen turns from Chivalry with a good-sized horse army ready for upgrade. The Iroquois were the intended target, and they were a dozen or so turns from completing Sistine. Nice timing

About 3 turns before I reached Chivalry, the (as yet unmet and unknown) Babylonians built Sistine ). The Iroguois switched to, and built, Leo's. That meant both Sun Tzu's and Leo's were sited in my first two targets.

Upon discovery of Chivalry, I declared war. Though losses were heavy, I made steady headway into the Iroguois south. I don't know if it was the abundant wonders (both GL's, Oracle, and Leo's), my border build-up, or changes in PTW, but Salamanca had eight pikemen defending (and it was not a border city). Fortunately, I had planned on moving my entire force into Salamanca to suppress resistors and prepare for a deep thrust into Iroquois lands, and I had 20+ Ansar Warriors on a mountain outside the city. Over the course of fighting, I generated two leaders. The first I held for 5 turns as I researched Music Theory, and then used to rush JS Bach's (since I missed Sistine); the second formed an army, later victorious, and I built the HE.

I had only planned on taking Salamanca and a row of cities just south (for culture flip room), leaving Hiawatha with some tundra cities and control of a few furs, but I discovered that resistance was pretty intense (frequently all X citizens would be resistors upon a city's fall), and decided to clear my southern flank and relegate the Iroquois palace to Greece where they had built a lonely city.

In the meantime, I happily noticed that Bismarck's sole supply of iron had depleted. That's why so many longbowmen (instead of knights) were crossing my lands towards Greece. Bismarck demanded Incense and I gave it to him to avoid a second front. I used my GA to replenish my depleted Ansar Warrior ranks, and to build libraries and then a few universities (after having received Literature from my captured GL). Then, on the very turn my GA ended (and Hiawatha was ruler of a rump state, though not quite cleared off my southern flank) Bismarck demanded iron - I refused - he declared war and took my incense city with a force of longbowmen and pikemen making their way towards Greece. I retook the city, cleared my lands of danger, and am now in a position to press the attack for gems, control of the continent, and possibly the destruction of the Germans. I fear I have passed the tip-over point and the game is in hand without much risk now.

A screenshot from the turn after Bismarck declared war (and I retook my incense city) is below.

Catt

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	13-12-2002 19:37									#112
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The Arabs landed 11 transports with 7 MI armies on the Babs silk coast. Lots of arty included. We were not allowed to land on the mountain in the new mod.

The Babs intelligently did nothing other than pop a couple of cruise missles on the stack. The landing was covered by a stack of battleships and carriers with jets on air superiority. So, the babs bombers would not have done well. We took a city and built a new one to start the silk flow home. However, as this was the end of a fully engaged 20-turn world war with all civs participating, our citizens were about to revolt, despite the US wonder. With our beachhead in the only civ that is a threat on research speed secured, we made peace, remaining in democracy.

Sitting on a dwindling tech lead (due to AI trading I presume) we turned our attention to the cure for cancer before a run to get some modern armor.

It's fun exploring the new depth of the game in the modern era.

	14-12-2002 00:01									#113
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I apologize for the rather piecemeal approach to my AAR. . .

Both my fisrt attempt and my current attempt at AU 202 seem to be massively influenced by luck, which makes the game a little less interesting. The first attempt (you may recall) I suffered a German archer rush only a few turns later than it would take Bismarck to march his units directly to my second city. Bad luck. This second attempt is a tidal wave of good luck.

As I researched Chivalry, if Bismarck decided to declare war with all his troops trapising through my land towards Greece, I probably would have been knocked out of contention, if not all but eliminated. Didn't happen. Instead, I made it to Chivalry, upgraded 20+ horse to Ansars, took the Iroquois Sun Tzu city, triggered my GA which enabled both more upgrades and tremendous gold accumulation. A few turns later I took Salamanca and moved 25+ troops in to hold the town for at least one turn so as to enjoy the benefits of the Great Library. Bingo, tech parity. After taking Hiawatha's only two additional grassland, size 8+ cities, the Iroquois were essentially toast and my southern flank was basically secure.

My curiouisty peaked by lots of German longbows, I finally noticed that poor Bismarck's iron had depleted. He was defanged. With a war of conquest against Germany 10 turns out in my planning, Bismarck helpfully declared war when I wouldn't donate iron to the cause. Although pikemen are sometimes trouble, my forces are essentially carving through German lands. The Great Wall city will fall next, and then Berlin. The only question is whether to take all of Germany or turn my horses loose on Greece first.

Throughout the process, my non-militaristic civ has generated 4 leaders, without really trying (I'm guessing those 4 leaders have come from no more than 25 or 30 elite victories -- the first two before I had the HE built). I have a pre-build ready for Newton's, and I already rushed Smith's. I suppose I can take Magellan's if I want it.

I'm still a Monarchy, and seem to be keeping tech pace despite (1) relatively few universities, (2) relatively low science spending, and (3) a Palace and FP placement only 4 tiles apart. I haven't moved my Palace yet as intended, but maybe I'll use my current leader to do so. It hasn't seemed a pressing concern.

In short, after a frustrating first attempt, I am "enjoying" a ridiculously lucky second attempt (I say "enjoying" only because I start to lose a little bit of interest when the game is in hand). There is absolutely no reason I shouldn't win by domination with Cavalry if I put my mind to it -- and in connection with a discussion in other threads here in the Strat forum, I think I can simply focus on units if I want to, and stop my infrastructure projects with only 10 or so universities and 2 banks in the empire. My "easy" win will, however, have less to do with brilliant playing and more to do with a lucky coast downhill.

Catt

	14-12-2002 00:11									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Catt I apologize for the rather piecemeal approach to my AAR. . . Catt

You should apologize. The piecemeal approach you have exhibited here definitely makes the rest of us suspicious you might have an outside life, or something.

Meantime, I was curious about the thread(s) you mentioned that dealt with the choice between building infrastructure and an all-out cavalry charge. Being basically lazy or overly cautious, I usually turn builder and hardly ever finish off a domination win with cavs.

	14-12-2002 00:11									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Catt . . . a Palace and FP placement only 4 tiles apart. I haven't moved my Palace yet as intended, but maybe I'll use my current leader to do so. It hasn't seemed a pressing concern.

I settled early in this game on placing my FP west of the start location. The terrain was great, it offered a well-centered position, the presence of hills, mountains, and jungles promised very shield-intensive cities and the possibility of an Iron Works in the Industrial Age (BTW, I haven't gotten there yet -- any IW possibilities near our start position or the incense hills?). Plus, I could build the FP manually pretty quickly and count on a later palace relocation to develop independent cores.

But, as leaders and land make themselves available, I'm coming to the conclusion that this is a particularly bad map for nice cores. The lands to our start's west seem to be the best of the continent. Each of the other three "spits" are not terribly inviting terrain-wise, and don't offer a whole lot of room for a productive core. To make the most of Palace Mobility on this continent, it seems that three palace moves would be needed - one to each of the foreign lands, and I'm not convinced that the pay-off for doing so will be that great. Combine that with the fact that Palace Mobility really comes into its own after Industrialization and many of you are seizing control of the continent before the Industrial Age, and I'm thinking that moving the Palace multiple time is an exercise in masochistic micromanagement with little impact on game position.

Where have others put their FPs and Palaces (if you moved the palace from the start location)? Any differing views on the landmass and its amenability (or lack thereof) to nice cores?

Catt

	14-12-2002 00:21									#116
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quote: Originally posted by jshelr Meantime, I was curious about the thread(s) you mentioned that dealt with the choice between building infrastructure and an all-out cavalry charge. Being basically lazy or overly cautious, I usually turn builder and hardly ever finish off a domination win with cavs.

Not so much infrastructure versus cavalry charge. It started as the old familiar "early temple" or not, and drifted into (for me) an opportunity to share a view on the game and its "winning strategies" that I don't advocate as a playstyle (nor do I play) but which I believe to be true -- that all infrastructure, other than a few barracks, is window dressing to some extent and unneeded to win. At the core of the game, units, unit factories (cities) and conquest win the game in most instances. Taking it a step further, the only reason for any real infrastructure at all is if some enemies are out of reach (separated by ocean for instance), and then only enough to keep reasonably close is needed. All of this, I believe, flows more or less from Vel's early work on the game (and I suspect that Vel came to a similar conclusion which made the game unintersting to him, but which hasn't done the same to me yet).

I think the dsicussion started in Dominae's excellent Civ-Specific Strategy: Americans thread, and continued into Arrian's excellent The Breath of God: Only the Peniten Man Shall Pass thread. My own posts were also influenced by the Early Deity discussion started by GusSmed.

Catt

	14-12-2002 00:43									#117
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Catt:
I to0 had trouble setting up my capital/FP alignment. Eventually I decided to place the FP in Tabriz, relatively close to my capital (which I rarely move in games below emporer level -- not for strategic reasons, but just as a personal playing quirk). The result, crafted in part by some difficulty expanding in the late-ancient/early middle ages, is not as widely-spaced or as elegant as I would like. (See below.) Still, the result is productive enough.

As you observed, the best lands on our continent were those to our east and immediate north. Further north was not as attractive. Further south, I wasn't ready to take on the Irqs yet, and I needed to get my FP on the map.

edit: doh! East/west? I meant "the other east"

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	14-12-2002 01:07									#118
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Thanks Catt. Your comment meakes me wonder if the AU mod would benefit by giving improvements a greater ability to lift a civ. Just talking through my hat, suppose libraries and universities were significantly more efficient than they now are in generatating increased research speed. Would it be possible to tweak the game enough to make building necessary and unadulterated warmongering less effective?

	14-12-2002 01:20									#119
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Using Robber Baron's Map above, My capital is in the same spot and my FP is in Ulaanbaatar. I built it really early in 30 turns. I've been meaning to move my Capital, but it hasn't been necessary yet. As bad as my FP-Palace placement is, it's not any worse the the AIs.

	14-12-2002 01:49									#120
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Tangent:
The Mongols have by far the coolest city names. I mean, "Ulaanbaatar"?
Probably to make up for having the fuggliest leader.

edit: spelling. sheesh.