08-12-2002 07:54									#61
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You are correct; my original post has been amended.

	08-12-2002 22:40									#62
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now i may have missed it, but i don't think you've posted how long this lasts...

	08-12-2002 23:01									#63
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it was 7 days, it was shown in the poll.

	08-12-2002 23:24									#64
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Yeeeeehaw! :=)

	08-12-2002 23:25									#65
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awww, but it goes away after you vote

EDIT (added for comic effect): "Lady Deirdre Drogue, your whimpering Green idealism has become an unacceptable impediment to legitimate economic progress. Since you show no signs of tempering your extremism with a measure of common sense, I shall now terminate your faction party as a matter of simple good business practice."

Last edited by Method on 09-12-2002 at 03:03

	09-12-2002 12:17									#67
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Are you *absolutly* sure you don't want to at least become an unofficial supporter of the DLP TKG? ^^;;

	09-12-2002 17:29									#68
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quote: Originally posted by TKG EDIT (added for comic effect): "Lady Deirdre Drogue, your whimpering Green idealism has become an unacceptable impediment to legitimate economic progress. Since you show no signs of tempering your extremism with a measure of common sense, I shall now terminate your faction party as a matter of simple good business practice."

I'd expect as much from the immoral, monopalistic hub of all evil Morgan

	09-12-2002 19:51									#69
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I think we cannot come to an understanding before deciding whether to be guided by in-game or RP reasons. Yes, I want to get that +2 ECON, I want to skyrocket our research and income, but OTOH I'd like 'to avoid the mistakes of the old Earth' and be sure that every citizen of our faction benefits from the progress. What should I choose?

	09-12-2002 20:40									#70
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quote: whether to be guided by in-game or RP reasons

in-game ? RP ? What does all that mean ?
Politics are no game ! :doitnow:

	09-12-2002 20:43									#71
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I think you have to decide which is more important, +2 Econ or avoiding the mistakes of old Earth. I think we have reached a stage when human nature has developed to beyond Old Earth's confines, and we can embrace Marxism and the Environment, producing a better society, and a better Planet. However Some people disagree and think that with human nature as it was on old Earth, FM produces more for the individual and for society. It's your call which is more important.

Or just sod all that and Vote Never

Edit: Besides, IMO pop-boom (from Planned, and building Children's Creches) is more important ATM than +2 Econ. So even not RPing at all, I would want to keep Planned for a little longer at least.

Last edited by Drogue on 09-12-2002 at 21:47

	09-12-2002 21:26									#72
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Drogue : I know, I was just answering RP that we should do RP. I should have add a

	09-12-2002 21:40									#73
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OK, got the point. What I wanted to point out is that in RP discussion one should not use such arguments as: 'Hey, look! With FM we'll make the next breakthru in 10 turns!'...

Voted 'never' to FM.

	09-12-2002 21:46									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Drogue : I know, I was just answering RP that we should do RP. I should have add a

Opps

I should have known that was the case, but then I thought I'd be a gullible fool

	09-12-2002 22:15									#75
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[quote]What I wanted to point out is that in RP discussion one should not use such arguments as: 'Hey, look! With FM we'll make the next breakthru in 10 turns!'...
[/quote}
Try to explain that to Archaic while remaining RP...

	10-12-2002 03:04									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic Are you *absolutly* sure you don't want to at least become an unofficial supporter of the DLP TKG? ^^;;

absolutely sure

	10-12-2002 11:15									#77
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quote: I think you have to decide which is more important, +2 Econ or avoiding the mistakes of old Earth.

These 'mistakes' being what? The 'mistakes' made on Earth were:

1) To allow oligarchies too much power in the West and elsewhere,

2) To allow the proliferation of weapons to an insane extent,

3) To interpret 'we don't need to worship the enironment' as 'let's destroy the environment'.

FM didn't cause any of these mistakes, it simply helped to magnify them (it should be noted that in the USSR, the environment was left in a far worse state than in the US, despite it's use of a Planned economy. The oligarchy also had far morw power there).

quote: Edit: Besides, IMO pop-boom (from Planned, and building Children's Creches) is more important ATM than +2 Econ.

If we were going to Pop-boom, we should have done it already. we don't have nearly enough CC's to make it worthwhile, or enough Rec Commons, for that matter.

	10-12-2002 11:19									#78
	Got spare money?

quote: [quote]What I wanted to point out is that in RP discussion one should not use such arguments as: 'Hey, look! With FM we'll make the next breakthru in 10 turns!'... [/quote}

What should we say then? 'FM will practically double our speed of scientific advancement'?

	10-12-2002 15:39									#79
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus These 'mistakes' being what? The 'mistakes' made on Earth were: 1) To allow oligarchies too much power in the West and elsewhere, 2) To allow the proliferation of weapons to an insane extent, 3) To interpret 'we don't need to worship the enironment' as 'let's destroy the environment'.

To have a system whereby the Earths resources are used up at an unsustainable rate (eg. fossil fuels), to allow greed to push need out the window, to have half the worlds wealth in tha hands of less than 5% of the population, to produce enough food to feed the world, yet let many in the 3rd world starve, or die of diseases that we have cheap medication for, to allow companies, or even governments, to sell weapons to known violent regimes (as went on well into the 21st Century) and to create havok with the fragile eco-system.

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus FM didn't cause any of these mistakes, it simply helped to magnify them (it should be noted that in the USSR, the environment was left in a far worse state than in the US, despite it's use of a Planned economy. The oligarchy also had far morw power there).

Can I have some evidence for this? The USSR by all accounts I'm aware of emited less pollutants than the USA per capita over 20th Century (or any period within the 20th Century IIRC)

	10-12-2002 17:30									#80
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus it should be noted that in the USSR, the environment was left in a far worse state than in the US, despite it's use of a Planned economy.

You don´t want to say the USSR has been the ideal Communism, right? In fact, the Soviets tried to build up industry at any cost, just to stay head on head with the USA. In real life, FM stands for "building up industry at any cost", just to gain more and more money. (As you can see now on Spain´s coast)
In-game, I fear that we will need all the money surplus to rushbuy military reinforcements for these units that we´ve lost when fighting against mindworms and isles (-30 % "bonus" !!!! ).

	10-12-2002 18:26									#81
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quote: I fear that we will need all the money surplus to rushbuy military reinforcements for these units

... instead of providing good infrastructure to our citizens...

	10-12-2002 18:37									#82
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exactly!

	10-12-2002 19:19									#83
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Results until now :

Switch now : 6 / 17 votes -- minority

Switch ASAP - when worms out of sight : 7 / 17 votes -- minority

Switch ASAP - when trance defenders in place, after Environ. Eco. : 7 / 17 votes -- minority

Switch ASAP when worms out of sight, trance defenders in place, Env.Eco. researched : 8 votes -- minority

2 persons voted eventually and only one precised the conditions : Aaron Blackwell

Fortunately, the DoSE has to satisfy one more condition, plus all stated before : either Aaron's or John Doe's suggestion must be applied before a switch to FM. Can this John Doe please make himself known ?

	10-12-2002 22:04									#84
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus What should we say then? 'FM will practically double our speed of scientific advancement'?

Any RP reason is better than in-game one, IMHO. But don't expect me to invent arguments for you.

If it was an SP game, I would have chosen FM myself much earlier, since it's very good SE setting. But in ACDG, with difficulty only at Thinker, we can allow ourselves to roleplay, thereby there is no saying things which consider game mechanics.

	10-12-2002 22:12									#85
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btw all the Now voters should also be counted as an 'as soon as possible' and 'evetually' voter in my opinion.

	10-12-2002 22:15									#86
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DBTS, that s how I counted : the Switch ASAP, when worms are out of sight is the "now (6)"+"asap:when worms out of sight (1)", which makes seven. The problem is that one voted eventually without giving under what conditions. This will be really problematic to interprete the poll.

	10-12-2002 22:17									#87
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yes well eventually is more like a abstain choice...but the as soon as possible choice is at 8 now and is an indication to hold a new poll very soon.

	10-12-2002 22:31									#88
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Well, now we have two John Doe...
one for ASAP, the other for eventually...

	10-12-2002 22:32									#89
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ASAP, contingent upon Env Econ (to make the +2 energy worthwhile), trance defenders, and enough empath worm-hunters to keep things safe.

The extra energy will enable quicker new discoveries and funds to amass our army against the Hive (as Demo/ FM/ Knowledge so no -2 morale). Two very reasonable priorities. The police problems can be managed with psych and the ecodamage situation needs to be settled whatever our economics. When the time comes to launch the attack against the Hive, then we need to go Green or back to planned.

I was very surprised that the ED formula quoted above didn't have a factor for Planet rating. That's different from what I remember and had expected. It is counterintuitive that the relationship of mineral count to ecodamage would be independent of planet rating.

Whatever our economic system (and hence, whatever our planet rating), monitoring of mineral production and ecodamage/ pop levels will be important. Ultimately, our industrial needs will suggest setting mineral levels as high as possible with either zero or low ecodamage. It's just that under Green, we'll be able to push that level somewhat higher. Then end results will be the same - some ecodamage and occasional pops.

	10-12-2002 22:34									#90
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It does have a factor for planet rating, i dont know which formula you've been looking at, but if it has no planet factor, thats a fake formula.