06-12-2002 17:08									#1
	Official: Free Market Economics (Repost) Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm sure that even though I won't be making any mistakes this time I'll still get nitpicked. Gomen for them earlier, but before you want to nitpick more, you try handling 40 degrees C heat for the past four days and post on impulse when tired.

Anyway, this needs no introduction. Arguements for and against FM can be found in the SE Office, the STEP thread, and probably soon the DLP thread.

	06-12-2002 17:12									#2
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GT's already posted this in the original error filled poll, but I'll repost here.

If we go FM now, and switch spending to 40% economy, 20% Psych and 40% Research, then we'll send several bases into GAs and the only base which will experience Drone problems will be Pandemomium, which will require a Doctor for the time being. Our income and research will increase from 24 ECs and 17 turns to next discovery to 53 ECs and 11 turns.

Last edited by Archaic on 07-12-2002 at 10:19

	06-12-2002 17:35									#3
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Thank you Archaic,

This is more like it.

Now I can make a real vote.


I voted " Eventually".

The condition I suggest for a switch to Free Market would be like this :

- Have the necessary nutrients harvested to support large population and get this by making a pop boom using our current SE.

With a large population, the bonuses from energy square and trade will be that bigger.

This can be accomplished by creating Condensators on nutrient bonus square and sending a crawlers there.

- Have more infrastructure ready to reap the rewards of Free Market and control the drone and ecoproblem it could cause.

( Tree Farm help both problem, multiple centauri preserves to increase clean minerals, network node (with VW) and recreations drones ).

I think we would be better using the Industrial bonus to put this into place first before possibly making the switch.

- Having a few more technology to help make the switch and more specifically centauri meditation for empaths.
Empath will help drones and be efficient at the same by providing us extra economy ( to boost our Rush building).

Also, when tree farms will be in place, they will help us create golden ages.

Another way to use them, would be to switch to knowledge combined with FM when the option become available for a total of +2 efficiency. In this situation, the empath, while making the population happy and creating golden ages, will also create extra economy that will allow us to use a repartition of 60% Science 40% economy, speeding up our research while not dragging our energy reserves.

- As a conclusion, I would like to note the following :

Contrarly to what you seem to think Archaic, I am not strictly against FM, I am against the argument you used to support it, and the way you present things.

FM can be beneficial but , if it is to be done, I would prefer it to be done when our society will be advanced enough to reap its rewards while fully countering its drawbacks at the same time.

Tough I understand that the ambition of few can significantly boost our economy, they should only be allowed to do so in a way where the majority will not suffer from it but rather in a way that will be at the benefit of every single individual of our nation.

SUMMARY :

FM not now !! Possibly later when infrastructure, nutrient and technology will make it completly worthwhile.

	06-12-2002 17:45									#4
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quote: If we go FM now, and switch spending to 40% economy, 20% Psych and 40% Research, then we'll send several bases into GAs and the only base which will experience Drone problems will be Pandemomium,

I must correct you Archaic.

Only UNN Pizza delivery will experience Golden Age ( thus the word 'several' is not really correct here).

I think we will better off constructing all the Rcommons, Network Node before possibly making the switch.

Also to be noted, We will be producing 54 energy reserves per turn in FM against 28 in Planned.

Thus FM will not really allows us to readily use Rush-Building.

EDIT MODE :

Also to be noted, Iod with a single mindworms is near our bases + there are still fungus left from where mindwords could come and where we intend to build new bases.

	06-12-2002 18:09									#5
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You're correcting GT, not me. Personally, I trust his judgement more. Perhaps you missed the 20% Psych?

And how you could think research of 1 in 17 is better than 1 in 1 I don't know.....

Oh, and stop posting arguements already rebutted. "Drone Problem"? Wow, fixed by one Doctor. "Eco-damage Problem"? It's been turned on its head to work for our advantage. Your arguements for why we should wait seem to be missing a lot, ne?

	06-12-2002 18:16									#6
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When i switch the economy to FM in the game, it says research will take 10 turns, not 1.

	06-12-2002 18:22									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No, I correctly applied the 20% in Psych and , yes, only UNN Pizza delivery was in golden age.

Will verify again if you wish, just to make sure.

	06-12-2002 18:24									#8
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I voted as soon as possible, first i want those 2 mindworms out of the way.
And the rec commons in pandemonium will be completed in 2 turns, that means we could switch to FM without any drone problems.

	06-12-2002 18:35									#9
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Okay, my mistake.

The Psych bonus was made correctly, but the game need to run one turn to recalculate the psych correctly as it seems.

So, yes, GT is correct. Several cities will experience golden age BUT :

Mysidia is incorrectly stated for this, a base need a minimum of 5 pop before GA can occur, Mysidia has only 3, same problem for new suez.

New Apolyton triggers correctly though as is UNN Pizza delivery.

That makes 2 GA for 1 drone riots.

Also, 4 bases namely Antioch, Thisbasebelong2us, Zanarkand gate , Concordia and Tacitus Academy will be on the verge of drone riots, each having 2 talents for 2 drones.

As for the research, it will bring us to one discovery every TEN (10) turns , not 1 (one) turns.

Next discovery in 4 turn.

Also to be noted, several mindworms activities threatening several of our cities, plus addiotionals one that could be possibly delivered by at least one IOD.

The penalty to planet will not allow preemptive strikes.

All of this to say, that while I am not totally against FM ( though I personaly prefer Green), the results are not that satisfactory.

The relative increase in research is due to the fact that we start from a very low research income to start. 86 under FM against 55 under planned.

So the bonus in research is to be somewhat relativised.

It is possible to get better results than this via triggering pop boom, which in turn will produce more energy or can be turned into specialist.

	06-12-2002 19:08									#10
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ASAP. meaning, after we can get a few trance defenders in place, and after environmental economics. free market before the energy restriction lift is less useful.

if not, after our crushing defeat of the hive would seem like a good time

	06-12-2002 20:14									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic Oh, and stop posting arguements already rebutted. "Drone Problem"? Wow, fixed by one Doctor. "Eco-damage Problem"? It's been turned on its head to work for our advantage. Your arguements for why we should wait seem to be missing a lot, ne?

Why? We do not feel they have been adiquatly rebutted so as not to count. There is both a drone and eco-damage problem, although at the moment I have to admit there is not much of a problem.

But FM while at war with the Hive and still exploring I accept GTs points that with drop troops it is ok to be at war with FM, but we don't have those. If we really want FM, I would say wiat until we have crushed the Hive.

I voted never, because I would rather live on a Planet with less eco-damage and less money, than vice versa. Purely an RP reason, because since we will win whatever, I don't see the need to go all out for victory, regardless of the consequences.

	06-12-2002 21:33									#12
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"never"

	06-12-2002 22:03									#13
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"never"

I favour to switch to Green as soon as Planned Economics becomes problematic.

	07-12-2002 00:40									#14
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I agree. Stick with Planned until we get some decent size bases (although we really should have had some childrens creches IMO, we need pop-booms!) and then switch to Green for efficiency.

	07-12-2002 05:38									#15
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Just a correction: the research time should have been 11 turns, not 1.

	07-12-2002 05:59									#16
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quote: But FM while at war with the Hive and still exploring I accept GTs points that with drop troops it is ok to be at war with FM, but we don't have those. If we really want FM, I would say wiat until we have crushed the Hive.

Is there any compelling reason to crush the Hive now? They aren't a real threat to us yet, being on another continent, and FM will allow us to move towards drop troops much more quickly, due to the extra income.

	07-12-2002 07:48									#17
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I agree with Pande above, switch when planned becomes problematic.
Re: The Hive
While we are discussing the pro and cons of FM and non FM the Hive is likely to be a significant Global polluter on his own.
I am sure you will have encountered a message, when the waters rise, that it was not your fault but the activity of other factions that caused the ice melting. So I think there is reasonable urgency in curtailing the Hive and other heavily polluting faction's activities.
This requires calculating our factions damage potential against other factions.

The factions we have encountered so far have not exactly proclaimed an environmentaly friendly agenda.

	07-12-2002 07:50									#18
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quote: I am sure you will have encountered a message, when the waters rise, that it was not your fault but the activity of other factions that caused the ice melting. So I think there is reasonable urgency in curtailing the Hive and other heavily polluting faction's activities.

What on earth gives you the idea that the Hive are heavy polluters? They may not be that fond of the environment, but there's nothing to indicate that they're causing pollution.

	07-12-2002 10:19									#19
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With the Hive's likely +2 or +3 Industry (Not to mention that they're an AI controlled faction), and the fact that it'ss highly unlikely that they have mineral levels above 10 at any base, the Hive have the least reason or need to pollute of any faction in SMAC. And yes, I'm including the Gaians there. (They have a reduced pollution, but have as much need to pollute as anyone else) Another Hasty Generalization Herc.

	08-12-2002 01:54									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak "never" I favour to switch to Green as soon as Planned Economics becomes problematic.

Exactly! Democracy + Green triggers an efficiency of +3 for us, and that will give us the energy credits of Free Market without the ecodamage!
We do now have enough problems with mindworms, do not increase them just for cash! If you need energy credits, go and "lend" it from the Hive!

	08-12-2002 03:08									#21
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BS. An efficiency bonus at this stage will never gain us as much money as FM.

	08-12-2002 03:28									#22
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Not yet, that´s right. But the empire will expand, at least in the Hive-direction...
Efficiency is as much important as energy, since it is difficult to buy your drones happy... (eff. decreases unhappiness, doesn´t it?)

Switch to green as soon as it is neccessary!

	08-12-2002 03:32									#23
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It still won't matter. It's actually very easy to 'buy your drones happy', using Psych. This also induces GAs, which produce even more energy.

quote: eff. decreases unhappiness, doesn´t it

Inefficiency makes people unhappy; efficiency doesn't make more people happy, just reduces the number unhappy due to inefficiency.

	08-12-2002 04:01									#24
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that is what I meant...

But leaving aspects of environmental devastation and poor efficiency, there is still a -5 POLICE effect!
every two units outside the bases trigger one additional drone.... We cannot use the usual methods of coping with that ( cutting nerves, recruiting prisoners out of unhappy citizens) cause we´re the Peacekeepers, so this might be a problem! I still think we shouldn´t use FM as long as we have other ways to go.

	08-12-2002 04:04									#25
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How would that be a problem? Just use Psych and make sure to keep the number of troops outside of borders to a minimum.

	08-12-2002 04:12									#26
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all of what the general says is true. i used to use green exclusively, but 1 try at market was enough. +2 economy makes so much more energy and research than efficiency does, that i'll NEVER go back to green (except in a prolonged war, or if i need to please the gaians or something)
you just have to be a bit more careful with drones, but 20% psych is more than enough to do it.

besides, we can get SPs to reduce the -police effect...

	08-12-2002 04:26									#27
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ok. I surrender. :
As I´m running out of arguments, I give up for now. Seems as if I will have to join more meetings of the CCCP to recharge my communistic idea.

	08-12-2002 04:33									#28
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It's just fundamentally wrong and unfair!!!! (I have none left either, except RP ones )

	08-12-2002 04:49									#29
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yay, the greens have surrendered!

	08-12-2002 04:54									#30
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About time too.