08-12-2002 21:21									#1
	Why I quit Civ3 again... (Combat) (Rant) Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So, I recently decided to get PTW and fire up Civ 3 again. I had originally quit in disgust before all the patches came out and had been playing Alpha Centauri again.

So anyway, I'm the Carthagians neighboring the Indians and I decide I will need to take them out. I have iron they don't. They have horses I dont.

I build roads right to the edge of their borders, and mass up a bunch of swordsmen and a few numidian mercenaries to defend strategic points and captured cities (2/3/1 carthagian special unit). All they have are a few archers, spearmen and horsemen. My troops were all vets, his were all regulars.
Should be easy right? Not with Civ 3's combat system.

Suffice it to say my attack failed miserably. Why?

One reg archer defending on plains beat two vet swordsmen.
One reg archer defending on woods beat two vet swordsmen.
A reg horsemen defending on grassland beat an elite swordsman.
A vet warrior defending on hills beat two vet swordsmen.
As well as a few swordsmen losing to spearmen, which is expected.

So anyway, my attack stalled, and as I was bringing up more guys using my large road system a few of their horsemen were able to attack my cities. Since their horsemen were only regulars and I have veteran numidian mercs (2/3/1) fortified in all my cities I'm not too worried.

Three times in a row a reg horseman beats a vet numidian merc fortified defending in a city.

At this point I close the program.
This wouldnt happen in Civ2 or SMAC.
This is just one of the reasons that while I've spent 95 dollars on Civ 3 products I've played them for about 1/10th as long as I played Civ 2 or SMAC.
Anyway, theres my rant, I'm sure you don't care.

	08-12-2002 21:53									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You could, of course, edit the unit stats to your satisfaction...

	08-12-2002 21:58									#3
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UGLY streaks of bad luck.
OTOH, knowing that YOU can have such luck, know ALSO that the AI could. If you happened to have Preserve Random Seed turned off when you started the game, you could have another go at it.

Otherwise, enjoy your gaming!
If this was your 1st PTW game, I would say that my first one was a fiasco also, though I don't blame it on the combat system/RNG. Part of it was due to different AI behavior, something to adjust to.

	08-12-2002 22:34									#4
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Bad luck?
I played civ3 for a month hoping it would get good, and what he said is all that ever happend, amongst other things.

I agree, this would never happen in SMAC of AC.
eg. How many warriors did you build in civ2 and how useful were they?
In civ3 otoh, a warrior is an effective infantry unit until the medieval ages.

	08-12-2002 23:48									#5
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It all works according to probability; that has been tested.

Of course, if the probability is too strange for you, it is not diffficult to mod more hit points/ADM/ whatever.

To say that better units were better in Civ2... is true. But then, in Civ2, having just one better unit than the AI guaranteed your win... no challenge. The Civ3 combat system is optimized to keep resources and difficulty in mind.

Would you care to post stats on how many times your swordsmen won battles?

	09-12-2002 00:01									#6
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Well, at least you ackowledge it is a rant. The Civ 3 combat system is what it is -- it works for some and not for others.

If you get infuriated when the "longshots" come in (at least when the longshot is against you ), especially when a series of longshots comes close together, then you probably shouldn't play Civ 3 - you will be destined for rant-inducing, blood-boiling, red-faced incredulity.

Catt

	09-12-2002 00:05									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Catt The Civ 3 combat system is what it is -- it works for some and not for others.

Well, actually, it works for everyone, but not everyone likes it. Kinda like most products out there...

	09-12-2002 00:49									#8
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*wonders if Action is really a Coracle DL*




I have a love hate relationship with Civ3, but right now I'm busy with other games to play it (in fact, I don't think I've been playing since Aug.)

	09-12-2002 02:02									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Catt you will be destined for rant-inducing, blood-boiling, red-faced incredulity. Catt

I can definately personally attest to this. Before quitting Civ3, I tried one more game....just to see if my judgement was off just a little bit. Ugh. Because of the combat system, let us just say it did not go well.

And then it was bye bye for Civ3 At least it helped me realize the full glory of Civ2 and AC

	09-12-2002 04:38									#10
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 It all works according to probability; that has been tested. Of course, if the probability is too strange for you, it is not diffficult to mod more hit points/ADM/ whatever. To say that better units were better in Civ2... is true. But then, in Civ2, having just one better unit than the AI guaranteed your win... no challenge. The Civ3 combat system is optimized to keep resources and difficulty in mind. Would you care to post stats on how many times your swordsmen won battles?

this is all bollox, the only time in Civ3 I EVER had a succesful military was in a war against the romans who still had spearmen and legions (i had tanks and more modern stuff).

Even then, a spearmen would do some decent damage to my tanks before I won. It was a joke. And don't say this thing about luck, its not luck. It happens ALL the time.


Now Civ2 had a combat engione that worked. It was, infact, perfect for turnbased strategy games.

	09-12-2002 05:32									#11
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i think the problems of combat might stem from the "random seed" thing. i played some games preserving random seed and as well as not preserving it. when it is preserved, i noticed that because of how combat results are predetermined, attacking with a highly superior unit is going to get killed if it was already predetermined that way. for example, i attack a spearman with a horseman while random seed is preserved, and if the horseman dies, i then reload and attack the spearman instead with a cavalry, then the cavalry will die too because of the random seed (must be attacking the same enemy unit). i notice that however, things eventually balance out a great deal with random seed preserved as i lose some outrageous combats that i shouldve won while i win some ridiculous combats that i had no business winning. so try turning off the preserve random seed option and i think you might not run into some of the weird combat results.

	09-12-2002 06:08									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 *wonders if Action is really a Coracle DL*

Can't be! He never once mentioned cultural flipping.

	09-12-2002 06:24									#13
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man this is all bollox, the only time in Civ3 I EVER had a succesful military was in a war against the romans who still had spearmen and legions (i had tanks and more modern stuff).

This is silly.

If the only time you had a successful military engagement was when attacking from an age (or two!) ahead of your enemy, then you simply don't understand the game (or are horribly, unconscionably, truly unbelievably (i.e., not believable)) bad at both basic math and simple logic.

As cyclotron7 said, the game is perfectly straightforward and "plays by the rules" -- it simply may have a greater degree of randomness associated with combat than some would prefer.

That's not a problem with the game; it's a matter of taste.

Catt

	09-12-2002 09:50									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Catt This is silly. ...

Oooh! You said it MUCH nicer than I almost did.
It's okay to be or act like an idiot (i.e., "dim"), but such people should learn the skills necessary to not ADVERTISE it!

If one is not proficient at a task, they can try to understand it better through study or ask for help, but that was just a wee bit overboard in the sour grapes department.

	09-12-2002 09:50									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man this is all bollox,

No, it isn't. Battles in Civ3 have been statistically proven to be in accordance with the unit values. Knowing this, I can only conclude your results are either bad luck or gross stupidity. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's luck.

If it is luck, you can do several things.
1) Realize it's luck and stop whining about how unfair life is.
2) Change the hp values so combat results more closely fit the probabilities.
3) Modify the ADM values so you never lose, or whatever.

I challenge you to go in the strategy forum and tell people there that same-era wars are impossible. If that were true, they wouldn't be discussing early wars, archer rushes, etc. like they are. Same era wars work; I fight them nearly 100% of the time.

Sorry. You can not like the numbers if you want, but it's a fact that the combat system is not flawed in any way.

	09-12-2002 09:56									#16
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man Now Civ2 had a combat engione that worked. It was, infact, perfect for turnbased strategy games.

Except that the AI was a total push over. Get the right units, and it didn't stand a chance. But then if you're into games where you're guarenteed to win all the time, I can see why you don't like Civ3.

	09-12-2002 10:12									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Oooh! You said it MUCH nicer than I almost did.

I too was inclined to post something nasty, mainly having to do with his IQ and the modern GM watermelons.

	09-12-2002 10:16									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Catt, you are, as always, a gentleman.

I respect Coracle... he may be monochromatic and UNRELENTING, but at the end of the day he understands how the game works, and is lodging more or less valid philosophical complaints.

This nonsense? Either learn to play, or don't.

Tanks versus Legions and Spearmen... Andy-man, do I need to suggest that there's something wrong with your game?

Back to Action: Waaay bad luck, sorry. Try again, it'll swing back your way.

	09-12-2002 10:24									#19
	Put an end to popups!

Right on.

Willem: Clearly he's in to games he's guaranteed of winning, otherwise he wouldn't be playing at a level where he has tanks and the AI has spearmen...

	09-12-2002 10:53									#20
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Ugh, instead of whining in the Civ3 forums, just come and join the light In Civ2 or AC

	09-12-2002 12:23									#21
	Re: Why I quit Civ3 again... (Combat) (Rant) Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Action Suffice it to say my attack failed miserably. Why? One reg archer defending on plains beat two vet swordsmen. One reg archer defending on woods beat two vet swordsmen. A reg horsemen defending on grassland beat an elite swordsman. A vet warrior defending on hills beat two vet swordsmen. As well as a few swordsmen losing to spearmen, which is expected. So anyway, my attack stalled, and as I was bringing up more guys using my large road system a few of their horsemen were able to attack my cities. Since their horsemen were only regulars and I have veteran numidian mercs (2/3/1) fortified in all my cities I'm not too worried. Three times in a row a reg horseman beats a vet numidian merc fortified defending in a city.

Sounds really really bad luck, even with civ 3 combat system. Goes greatly against the odds.
When me and my friend played one 1v1 to try out ptw, even losing with archer attacking vs warrior on grassland with warrior winning and losing no hp got us pissed, the time invested in the archer was total waste. Also make us notice how the multiplayer does not provide competive play.
Usually the combat goes the way it should, many times not, but never have I had such a bad luck streak you have... are you for real?
"Go increase the hp in the editor" Wouldn't the battles take ridilculously long, or you have to turn animation off? Never touched the smelly editor

quote: i think the problems of combat might stem from the "random seed" thing. i played some games preserving random seed and as well as not preserving it. when it is preserved, i noticed that because of how combat results are predetermined, attacking with a highly superior unit is going to get killed if it was already predetermined that way. for example, i attack a spearman with a horseman while random seed is preserved, and if the horseman dies, i then reload and attack the spearman instead with a cavalry, then the cavalry will die too because of the random seed (must be attacking the same enemy unit). i notice that however, things eventually balance out a great deal with random seed preserved as i lose some outrageous combats that i shouldve won while i win some ridiculous combats that i had no business winning. so try turning off the preserve random seed option and i think you might not run into some of the weird combat results.

Not sure if this helps, since random seed is allways there, it just changes with every load if you don't preserve it, or so I have thought...

	09-12-2002 14:28									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

oh I assure you, it was real, keep in mind this was part of a huge assault with lots of fighting so there were some combat results which went as expected which I didnt mention.

Also I have no idea who Coracle is but it's funny you should mention culture flipping. The one city I managed to take before my attack stalled actually did culture flip a few turns later, taking 3 strong units with it (it was size 2)

I didn't bother to complain about that; it's my fault for not turning it off at the start of the game. Culture flipping would be fine if it didn't steal your military units. The flippers should get a rebel unit for each population of the flipping city and fight the garrison.

	09-12-2002 14:35									#23
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Culture flipping can be turned off in PtW.

I find your idea of fighting the garrison interesting. The unit should be the Guerilla (new in PtW) and the # of units fighting the garrison should be the # of resisting citizens. That would be a nice improvement.

	09-12-2002 20:14									#24
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It's been suggested before from time to time. It just gets lost in the usual 'flipping sux' 'flipping rules' 'stfu coracle' avalanche

	09-12-2002 20:38									#25
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man this is all bollox, the only time in Civ3 I EVER had a succesful military was in a war against the romans who still had spearmen and legions (i had tanks and more modern stuff). Even then, a spearmen would do some decent damage to my tanks before I won. It was a joke. And don't say this thing about luck, its not luck. It happens ALL the time. Now Civ2 had a combat engione that worked. It was, infact, perfect for turnbased strategy games.

I honestly don't understand how you guys are having so much trouble with the Civ 3 combat model. Maybe it's because I build up huge militaries that I don't notice any problems. Maybe it's because you have bad luck. But, in the worst-case scenario in my games, my military deters anyone from attacking me. I guess when I have 400+ MIs and 300+ MAs every game, it's hard to notice bad rolls though.

	09-12-2002 20:44									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Action The flippers should get a rebel unit for each population of the flipping city and fight the garrison.

That's actually a pretty cool idea. Much more realistic than units just disappearing.

	09-12-2002 21:08									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

They still had legions because they were hemmed in by me, and I don't think my 'bad luck' has anything to do with it.

Otherwise my Elite Swordsman would have beaten regular warriors atleast 3 out of 10 times.

Civ2's AI may have been a push over, but we aren't discussing the AI, the combat model was perfect. If the AI new where to put his units (ie on mountais, in fortresses etc) he would have been damn near impossible to beat.

quote: No, it isn't. Battles in Civ3 have been statistically proven to be in accordance with the unit values. Knowing this, I can only conclude your results are either bad luck or gross stupidity. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's luck.

Anything can be proven wit a barrage of numbers.

	09-12-2002 21:55									#28
	Put an end to popups!

Gentlemen,

One of the better educated players Vulture (degree in Astrophysics) did an analysis of the RNG used for the game and came to the conclusion that the RNG was performing properly.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=60407

However, if the combat model is flawed to begin with, what does it matter ? I've been play-testing using increased hitpoints for the experienced units, and you can still loose an elite swordsman with 8 hp to a 2 hp archer in open ground. Granted with more hp, it happens much less frequently, and which is a good thing.

The problem is that for every beneficial change you make in the editor, it usually screws something else up in the game. Having made it much harder to kill veteran + units, it does slow down combat a touch, and it makes the need for upgrades all the more important. Unfortunately, I find that I am always short of gold needed to upgrade, let alone rush production in PtW games. It was never a problem in vanilla Civ3. So back to the editor and adjust the gold the bonus resources generate. It's an iterative process, just like learning combat.

And I do like the idea of having a city in revolt with the garrison having to fight it out with guerilla units to see who keeps the city. At least it would feel like your troops died with their boots on.

What I would like to see Firaxis use a more realistic combat model, by either making morale replace hp's or adding back firepower. Even going away from the a/(a+d)=%chance to do damage model to a difference model: a-d=X x 100% chance of winning a battle would be an improvement. This is the model they used with wargames using dice for the random element, so it should be workable for a game like Civ3.

In any case, it would also be nice to see Firaxis actually play test their game before they release it. I'm getting tired of being a Beta Tester for them and most other software products these days.


D.

Last edited by Gen.Dragolen on 09-12-2002 at 22:11

	09-12-2002 22:25									#29
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Civ2 was about as challenging as Ascendancy, you could not lose. I enjoyed both games, but please, they are not going to make life hard for anyone. Smac was not far behind. Civ3 can make you work a bit at a high level and a not so great start location. Did you ever work up a sweat in Civ2? I think not.

	09-12-2002 22:50									#30
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man Civ2's AI may have been a push over, but we aren't discussing the AI, the combat model was perfect. If the AI new where to put his units (ie on mountais, in fortresses etc) he would have been damn near impossible to beat.

The AI is part of the combat model. To seperate the two is ludicrous.

And even besides that issue, the system was far from perfect. Was there much of a challenge in the game once you achieved the Howitzer? How about in SMAC once you got the Chopper? Those units were so overpowering, it was almost impossible to lose once you had them. At least now you know there's no firm guarentee at any stage of the game, which makes it more interesting IMO.

I don't want my military campaigns to become a forgone conclusion, I like that bit of an adrenalin rush worrying about whether my troops will be victorious or not. It's called a challenge!