09-12-2002 02:21									#1
	Map Information. Poll by Paw Full PM-box? Change here!

Discussions continue that would see us divuldge general map information with other teams.

I am starting this poll by paw to settle once and for all whether we will allow the diplomats to divulge general information to other teams in return for similar information from them.

Will we allow the diplomats to bargain with such information at this point in the game?

Each team member should post 'yay' or 'nay', along with giving reasons why if they wish.

	09-12-2002 02:21									#2
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I say no, at this early point.

The risk of GoW knowing where to channel archer/scout forces early is too great.

Furthermore, it encourages any to the North or West of us to expand in our direction to minimise our position.

Later will be better. We could revisit this issue once we have made contact with at least one other team, IMO. At that point the secret is no longer so secret.

	09-12-2002 02:29									#3
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I'm not pinning down my opinion at this point, this discussion has been changing my views on the issue quite too many times already. Currently, I'm in favor of a modest 'yes', with some precautions, and reservations.

Giving indirectly map info to the GoW who could be close would be a serious risk, OTOH we don't have much to bargain for with the potential allies at this point in the game, and early friendly contact could become very important later on. If there would be any other thing we could safely exchange with would-be friends, I would go for that in stead of map-information.

DeepO

	09-12-2002 02:40									#4
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If we're looking into the possibility of a trade partnership with someone, I think exchanging simple "which hemisphere?" information makes sense. That's enough to give a good idea whether early contact at a neutral location is likely to be possible, but not enough to give an enemy any serious edge. I'm against giving out more detailed information until at least one civ finds us on their own, and even then, we may want to agree with them that neither of us discusses the other's location with other teams.

Nathan

	09-12-2002 02:42									#5
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I too, like DeepO, have seen my views change quite a bit, back and forth, and altogether too much for my taste.

I would vote yay ONLY if it is simply announcing what hemisphere we are in, left or right. That is all that is required at this moment, in my opinion

	09-12-2002 03:06									#6
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Nay... how do we benefit?

	09-12-2002 03:09									#7
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I don't think the question is specific enough.
Yay if we only exchange general information (as in dividing the map into sectors and telling the other party which sector we're in). Nay if we actually tell them where we are.

	09-12-2002 04:08									#8
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I wouldn't want to get more specific than hemisphere. Hemisphere is a decisive factor in early contact if we're on a continents map (where different hemispheres almost invariably mean different continents) and an important one on pangea maps because it takes so long to walk from one side to the other. And a hemisphere is still big enough to be of minimal tactical value to an adversary. But anything more precise than that carries significantly higher risks for a smaller incremental value.

Nathan

	09-12-2002 04:30									#9
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I still don't see the benefit... either they are close enough for us to war / trade with, or not. Trading hemisphere info does us no good.

	09-12-2002 04:36									#10
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... apart from being a possible indication we want to be another team's friends.

DeepO

	09-12-2002 04:39									#11
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So we're doing this just to be nice??!!

Not enough benefit for the risks, I'd say.

[Edit: deletion]

	09-12-2002 04:52									#12
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Yay on the hemisphere option, but again, no more specific than that.
We could stall for a while, until we have a third warior??

btw: are we taking Lux or Lego here? I far less inclined to share this info with Lux then I am doing so with Lego

theseus: IMHO opinion, we not doing this to be nice, but
to be nice to each other. Remember that we are the team to beat.
So we will probably need some assistance at some point, better have some good contacts sooner then later

	09-12-2002 05:19									#13
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Let's be nice when the time comes... I'd rather promise a FUTURE action than doing anything major now.

Flipping over to the Roleplay thread...

	09-12-2002 05:20									#14
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yeah, we're doing it to be nice, with the comment that we need to be nice, and don't give it to those who could use it to archer rush us. Other than that reason, all things in our disadvantage are disadvantagous to the other team as well, and all advantages are theirs too.

DeepO

	09-12-2002 05:41									#15
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unless they turn around and slip the info to gow, vox, and lux in the hopes that they finish us off...

	09-12-2002 05:50									#16
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Yup... that's why the first mentioning of this minimap trading was talking about a test of trust. I agree we don't have much to gain on this trust when we are obliterated before 2000 BC

DeepO

	09-12-2002 05:55									#17
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Thanks nye, I needed another paranoid in on this discussion!

Re the whole map / location trading idea, I propose that we trash the whole idea, with ANY civ. I am perfectly happy to explore just like in a normal game... it's only going to be the nearby civs that matter for a loooong time anyway, and can I mention that I'm PRETTY sure we'll have fastmovers out there before anyone else anyway!!!

I know we have to built trust, but let's find another way. And again, for the moment it's only going to be nearby civs that matter, so shouldn't we concentrate on them?

	09-12-2002 05:58									#18
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GoW is to our West, Lux is to our North.

We tell lego we are SE. They slip the info to Lux and GoW and tell them that they have supplied both (as well as Vox, but they are on a far away continent). Now GoW scouts are beelining straight East and Lux is coming straight South.

Say our prayers.

NO! Now can we stop this silliness? It is premature. It is also very foolish to buy 'freindship' by slipping our heads into the noose.

	09-12-2002 05:58									#19
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You've got a point, Theseus... and maybe we should postpone all of this until we know the nearest civs. But I don't see only the nearest civs as important: those are most likely to feel our armies, while further away teams can be good for any trading we want to have done. If we are going the isolationist way, we are very likely to lose this game, unless the others are stupid (and I don't think any team is)

DeepO

	09-12-2002 06:09									#20
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NYE your wisdom constantly is opening our eyes!

I don't wish to see our Wraith's head in a noose. Lets abolish ALL thought of trading maps. And maintain a strict isolationist policy until we meet our neighbors.

(that doesn't mean we can't communicate diplomatically, or swing deals, but we should not communicate map locations or such)

The anxiety to get this game going is getting the best of the Diplomatic Scholia I fear, myself included....

	09-12-2002 06:09									#21
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Hey, don;t get me wrong, we want to be BEST BUDDIES with far away teams... but we'll find other ways!

For instance (I need a "lightbulb over the head" smilie!!):

I'm pretty sure we are the only civ researching The Wheel first... I have no problem trading it, as only we get a serious benefit (thank god no one picked Iroquois!). And I believe most everyone will want it, as there are so many horse-based UUs. Extending the concept, I'm willing to bet that we will be in this position repeatedly, even when the time comes that we have finally met far-off civs...

I'd rather promise good trades, and then deliver on the promise.

Another point: Civs on other continents are really IRRELEVANT to us until can contact them in-game. Can;t trade techs or comm or luxes... can;t impact our military ops... can't do the funkier stuff like trading cities (ugh).

Let's hold off on all this craziness, but PROMISE to be nice, and even maybe make some FUTURE deals. I wanna see what hand we've been dealt before we put any real chips on the table.

	09-12-2002 06:12									#22
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Setting up rendevous points far away from our borders would still be a good idea, but that too is far in the future.

	09-12-2002 06:33									#23
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Setting up rendevous points far away from our borders would still be a good idea, but that too is far in the future.

Arranging rendezvous points could be VERY important because civs may try pretty hard to avoid exchanging the ability to make in-game contact (which doesn't come until Writing in any case). If we rendezvous before civs in between (if any) close off all viable paths, we can be sure of establishing contact. Otherwise, one or the other might have to risk war to make contact so the trading can start.

Nathan

	09-12-2002 17:34									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus (I need a "lightbulb over the head" smilie!!):

	09-12-2002 19:16									#25
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If my vote counts for anything, i'd vote for NOT sharing map information at any point, especially not in the early game when we are the most vulnerable.

	09-12-2002 20:01									#26
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Shortly, my opinion

- Don't trust anyone, even though they seem to be very nice to us at the given moment. Every team wants to win, and they can only achieve this, if we lose. Every team will backstab us, one earlier and the other later.

- No map or minimap trading, before they scouted us anyway. May be not even then. And of course no city trading, as was suggested earlier.

- Tech trading after having contact seems to be ok. But don't let them cheat us, techs have very different values.

- Arranging a meeting at some point far away seems to be ok, if done with care.

	10-12-2002 00:29									#27
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Nay Nay Nay...

I say.

Give no information yet.

I would be willing to commit to trading maps once we get map making. Hopefully bythen, we will have built some defense.

trade nothing untill we know the trade will not hurt us significantly. Map Infomation now is TOO valuable.

Mss

	10-12-2002 01:50									#28
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I say we should postpone this idea for a little whiel, at least untill we have a clear idea where we are geographicaly, and preferably where are our neighbors. I also think that exchanging general information (like which quadrant) is not as risky as some put it, and its potential could be great. I think most other teams are not as conservative as us on the matter, but i'll check the issue with GoW (not offering anything, so don't worry). Just think of it this way: If we stick to this isolation policy we limit our growth potential- teams that will trade soon will benefit soon. So think about this as well. Also, you must relaize that the longer we keep ourselves isolated we raise more and more suspicion of the other teams, and might make enemies instead of potential friends.

So please, think about this issues (that deal more with human relation than game mechanics) as well. When you say something like: "we should never exchange geographical location" you can expose yourself to danger which should not be ignored, although it might not seem as obvious as exposing our location for would be rushers and agressors.


All i'm saying is that you give this issue of info trading a chance, not now, on that i agree, but on the not so far future.

Oh, and, i also like the rendezvous idea, but we need to know more of our surroundings, as said before.

	10-12-2002 03:34									#29
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I believe the consensus is clear. No exchange of even general information at this time.

Bringing it up again later (after at least one contact) is completely fine. In the mean time, can we desist with the campaigning by the diplomats? Everytime I see one of you suggesting that we should, 'we would make a friend', I worry that someone is going to slip up.

I ask the diplomats to respect the will of the majority of the people who have spoken in this thread.

	10-12-2002 03:52									#30
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Our mandate only goes as far as the team is permitting us