11-12-2002 03:06									#31
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T2: build city, begin chop, allocate citizen to forest fur, build warrior.
T3: 1f, 3s
T4: 2f, 6s
T5: 3f, 9s, switch citizen to grassland tile.
T6: 5f, warrior complete, build another.
T7: 7f, warrior complete (chopping done), order another, begin irr.
T8: 9f, 1s. Switch citizen to fur tile.
T9: 11f, 4s. Irrigation done, move to next fur
T10: 13f, 7s. Begin chop
T11: 15f, warrior complete.
T12: 17f, 3s.
T13: 19f, 6s. switch citizen to unchopped fur.
T14: Size 2, warrior complete. select another. Move 1 citizen to grassland.
T15: 2f, warrior complete (chop done). Irrigate. Select settler.
T16: 4f, 3s. switch 2nd citizen to 2nd fur.
T17: 6f, 8s, irrigation complete. Move across river to fp tile.
T18: 8f, 13s, begin irrigation
T19: 10f, 18s, switch 1 citizen to fp.
T20: 13f, 21s. Irrigation complete, begin road.
T21: 16f, 24s. Switch back to furs only.
T22: 18f, 29s. Road done. Move to 2nd floodplain.
T23: Settler done. Size 1. Begin another, use fp. Begin irrigation.
T24: 3f, 1s.
T25: 6f, 2s. Irrigation done, road.
T26: 9f, 3s.
T27: 12f, 4s. Road done, move to fur
T28: 15f, 5s. Begin chop
T29: 18f, 6s. Switch citizen to irr fur.
T30: Size 2, 11s. Switch both to fp.
T31: 4f, 12s.
T32: 8f, 13s.
T33: 12f, 24s, chop done. Road.
T34: 16f, 25s.
T35: Size 3, 28s. Road done. Irrigate.
T36: Settler done, size 1, 4f (? need to test that one)*.

At this point we could do anything, including a third straight settler if we want.

* - It seems from the testing that you don't get overlap food when a city grows (ex: city has 19f, +3f/turn. Next turn it is Size2, 0f), but if you produce a settler after having already hit size 3, you get the food production before the settler drops you to size 1 (ex: city is size 3, has 6f, producing +4f/turn and will make a settler next turn. Upon making the settler, it is a size 1, 10f).

What I'd like to do is test the 5 warrior/2 settler plan and maybe have someone else do it to so as to be absolutely sure I'm right (Nathan? NYE? Alexman?).

-Arrian

	11-12-2002 03:13									#32
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Oh, one thing:

If our second city is built where I put it during testing, it will use the first irrigated fur tile, which means the plan would be slightly different, as so:

T29: 18f, 6s.
T30: Size 2, 9s. Switch both to fp.
T31: 4f, 10s.
T32: 8f, 11s.
T33: 12f, 22s, chop done. irrigate.
T34: 16f, 23s.
T35: Size 3, 26s. irrigation done, road. Move another citizen to fur (2 fur, 1 fp)
T36: Size 1, settler complete (3f? I think so...).

-Arrian

	11-12-2002 03:19									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian What I'd like to do is test the 5 warrior/2 settler plan and maybe have someone else do it to so as to be absolutely sure I'm right (Nathan? NYE? Alexman?).

Send me the test rig and I'll give it a go. (Actually, I'd like to have the test rig anyhow.) My e-mail is my username followed by @hiwaay.net.

Nathan

	11-12-2002 03:22									#34
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It depends on our situation, but I would certainly go for a temple after those 2 settlers are built. Not that I fear cultural flips without neighbours, but either we have neighbours and have to worry about culture, or we don't have neighbours and don't need barracks either...

But that's some 35 turns away, by that time we should know where we are

DeepO

	11-12-2002 03:24									#35
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Am I correct in seeing that by T40, we can have 4 cities up and running?

If that is the case, then by all means wait on the barracks until after turn 40. We will then be in good shape to diversify a little then.

The more cities we get up quickly, the better it will be. This plan comes close to the AI expansion rate on emperor.

Mss

	11-12-2002 03:31									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Nope, by T40 we can have 3 cities up and running.

Nathan, I will send you the scenario NYE made once I get home. Save it into the PTW scenario folder and load as a scenario. Remember to set the difficulty to Regent.

If you feel particularly ambitious, you could edit it to include terrain uncovered since NYE made it.

-Arrian

	11-12-2002 05:34									#37
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And what if we have horses connect prior to T30? No WC? a reg WC?

I'm not a fan of this no barracks craziness, but I could be convinced.

	11-12-2002 05:54									#38
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I'm going to send Nathan the test thingy now (sorry for the delay) and he can test the 5 warrior/2 settler plan. I may do some testing tonight, but I'm not sure I'm in the mood for it right now.

By the way, originally I had the worker crossing the river to work on one of the fp tiles right after he finished the 2nd fur. Upon further reflection at the recent screenshots, that's dumb: he should stay on the eastern shore of the river, and simply move north to develop the second fp (so chop, irr, move "7", chop, irr, move "7", irr, road, move "7", road, irr, move "6", chop, irr, road).

Theseus,

An early barracks only makes sense if we're going to pump out troops early on. Our top priorities right now are exploration and expansion. Veteran WCs can probably wait. Hell, if we bump into GoW really early, we could always consolidate our 5 warriors and rush them.

-Arrian

	11-12-2002 06:15									#39
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Please take a step back everyone...

I do NOT believe we are on an island... mountains on a N/S axis next to desert on an E/W axis? I predict the continent continues N by NW.

We certainly can;t ASSUME we are alone!

I DO believe that other civs are going to be a little far... don;t forget, we are one civ below max. So I look at an early WC as for both exploration and fastmover defensive protection!! I guess I can live with it at reg.

If we have a connected horse around T32, I'm going to lobby heavily for a WC.

	11-12-2002 06:24									#40
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: I'm going to send Nathan the test thingy now

Could you send it to our team e-mail too??
I would like to have a look at it too

And choosing the settler over the barracks is the way to go IMHO.

	11-12-2002 06:26									#41
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I'm less focused on the barracks now...

	11-12-2002 06:41									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Please take a step back everyone... I do NOT believe we are on an island... mountains on a N/S axis next to desert on an E/W axis? I predict the continent continues N by NW. We certainly can;t ASSUME we are alone! I DO believe that other civs are going to be a little far... don;t forget, we are one civ below max. So I look at an early WC as for both exploration and fastmover defensive protection!! I guess I can live with it at reg. If we have a connected horse around T32, I'm going to lobby heavily for a WC.

I too seriously doubt that we are on an island. I've played a few 'pelago maps, and this just doesn't feel like any island I've ever seen.

I think building more cities quickly to expand our industrial base is more important than an early barracks. When our ability to crank out settlers back to back starts to falter, we can slip in a barracks and then start building vet units in between settlers if that looks like the right way to go.

Nathan

	11-12-2002 06:46									#43
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I also doubt we're on a small island (although we may very well be alone). If my "map generator sense" is correct, I predict some nice Jungle just North of us.


Dominae

	11-12-2002 07:52									#44
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Regardless, I think mucho settlers rapido is the way to go. Barracks later.

-Arrian

(who is REALLY pissed, because SOMEHOW, my autosave got turned off - though after consulting the preferences screen it appears it was on - and I lost a game that was at 50AD, in which I was poised to open my GA, polish off the HG, crank out the GL in my GA, *AND* I had already gotten a leader - GROG lives(d) - who was all set to rush a FP in Madrid, which had the Pyramids, which I would have taken in 3 turns. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRG!)

Imagine that said in one breath. I'm pissed.

	11-12-2002 07:54									#45
	Suffering from ads?

Ouch. I save periodically. Habit I got into working with computers.

	11-12-2002 07:57									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

hmm, but even going back 3 or 4 turns can really be a gamebreaker to me.

Btw, I too have noticed not having any autosaves.
Gonna check on that more often...

	11-12-2002 07:59									#47
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yeah, yeah, I know. I got reliant on the autosave. I tend to also play as fast as possible when I'm anticipating something... like my attack on Spain & FP rush in Madrid (pyramids, FP, golden age all in one shot. I even had enough horsemen and swordsmen to fight my way to Madrid w/o using any WCs).

(*@&#$%@(#)&!!!

-Arrian

	11-12-2002 08:14									#48
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Condolences. I learned my lesson on massive spreadsheets... save after something important has been accomplished or is queued up. I don;t rely on autosaving at all.

I'm on board with the current plan, but I'm very wary of what's to the north. If we can, I'd like to get some of those Warriors heading that way sooner rather than later, preferably on hills / mountains.

And I still want to get a WC out there...

	11-12-2002 12:19									#49
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You got it Theseus.

1 Warrior to poke around in the South, up to 3 heading North and NW.

	11-12-2002 13:17									#50
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You got it Theseus. 1 Warrior to poke around in the South, up to 3 heading North and NW.

Just what I was thinking. (And NE too, of course, to whatever extent there is a NE.)

	12-12-2002 20:03									#51
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Nathan,

Have you had a chance to do any testing? I've been lazy about it.

If it works out, it seems we have a concensus for the 5 warrior/2 settler plan, yes?

-Arrian

	12-12-2002 22:14									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Nathan, Have you had a chance to do any testing? I've been lazy about it. If it works out, it seems we have a concensus for the 5 warrior/2 settler plan, yes? -Arrian

I tried one run through it and ended up a shield short on one of the settlers as I recall, but I didn't have time to try again right away to see if I messed up in my procedure the first time, and then I forgot about it. Sorry. I'll try to remember to make a point of re-checking again next time I have time.

Nathan

	12-12-2002 23:48									#53
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A shield too far, huh? I may mess with it tonight. One of us should do it soon, though.

-Arrian

	13-12-2002 00:01									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian A shield too far, huh? I may mess with it tonight. One of us should do it soon, though.

More like a shield not far enough. And agreed that it needs rechecked.

	13-12-2002 13:29									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian -SOMEHOW, my autosave got turned off - though after consulting the preferences screen it appears it was on - and I lost a game

Exactly same thing happened to me. Now twice. Just reported it in the 1.14 Bugs thread. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=70789

	13-12-2002 21:00									#56
	Re: Current Information Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: T22: 18f, 29s. Road done. Move to 2nd floodplain. T23: Settler done. Size 1. Begin another, use fp. Begin irrigation.

Ouch! 4 out of our 5 shields wasted this turn. Inefficient, but it's indeed the fastest way to get a settler with 5 warriors.

	13-12-2002 21:35									#57
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The problem is that when a city grows, you don't get any extra food, so if you're at 19f, producing +3f/turn, you will grow the next turn and reset to 0f.

The other option was:

T21: 16f, 24s
T22: 19f, 27s
T23: Settler complete, Size 1, 0f, 0s.

IF we had a second irrigated floodplain ready, it would be different, but we don't have that until later.

-Arrian

	13-12-2002 22:08									#58
	Barracks plan with a road twist? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

It looks like we might not be alone on an island after all, so we will likely need those veteran units.

If we stick with the Barracks plan, but we move the worker to road the two tiles to our next city instead of irrigating the floodplains, we end up founding our second city at exactly the same turn (26) as with the 5 Warrior plan (assuming we want to go just three tiles east/south for the second city).

[Edit: in addition to being more shield-efficient, this plan eliminates the risk of disease]

Just an idea.

Last edited by alexman on 13-12-2002 at 22:20

	13-12-2002 22:25									#59
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Hmmm... I agree that the continent we're on seems for more then one civ, and thus we could have a neighbour, even more then one. However, we haven't found him yet, and he hasn't found us. So what's the chance we need vets the following 15 turns? It takes time to build an rushing force if you don't want to compromise defense, and who is willing to risk that as long as he doesn't have contact? My guess is that a 1-warrior defense will be enough for our cities for at least another 15 turns, maybe even a lot more then that. I would not focus on barracks as long as we don't know our neighbours. (we can build it when we don't have anything better to do, of course)

DeepO

	13-12-2002 22:30									#60
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It's too late for the standard barracks plan, I believe, because next turn the 2nd chop will be done, producing a warrior. That would have been used on the barracks.

The one change I would make is that instead of crossing the river with the worker to irrigate/road a floodplain, we stay on the eastern shore and irrigate/road the two floodplains on that side. That provides part of a road to the north. After crossing the river, the settler gets two roaded tiles before hitting wilderness again.

Or, come to think of it, maybe my original plan was best, since it will provide 1 tile of road from EotS without crossing the river. Hmm... I may need to look at the screenshots again. The reason I have the worker cross back is so that after he develops the 2nd floodplain, he can chop some more forest. Maybe, just maybe, I can work it differently so that we can get an extra road for a settler sent north, without messing anything up.

-Arrian

damn, I wish I could see the screenshot at work. Are the tiles N & NW that border the river of EotS all floodplain (that would make four of them)?