13-12-2002 22:41									#61
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Are you sure it's too late? Aren't we only at turn 11?
I thought the chop would be done after the next Warrior, to make the 5th.

	13-12-2002 22:44									#62
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Ok, this should work:

T22: 18f, 29s. Road done. Move to 2nd floodplain (stay on western shore).
T23: Settler done. Size 1. Begin another, use fp. Begin road.
T24: 3f, 1s.
T25: 6f, 2s. Road done, irrigate.
T26: 9f, 3s.
T27: 12f, 4s. Irrigation done, move across river to fp
T28: 15f, 5s. Road
T29: 18f, 6s. Switch citizen to irr fur.
T30: Size 2, 11s. Switch both to fp. Road done, move to forested fur
T31: 4f, 12s. Begin chop
T32: 8f, 13s.
T33: 12f, 14s,
T34: 16f, 15s.
T35: Size 3, 18s.
T36: 4f, settler done (chop done), size 1. Begin road. Order barracks?

This provides two tiles of road leading NW out of EotS along the western bank of the river, while wasting no time.

-Arrian

	13-12-2002 22:48									#63
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Doh, you're right. My bad. Not too late. But I still like the 5 warriors/2 settlers better.

The question I have for your plan is this: doesn't it slow down settler #2 due to not having the floodplains for bouncing the population back up? Granted, the removal of disease risk is something to consider, but on Regent it is low.

-Arrian

	13-12-2002 23:21									#64
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quote: The question I have for your plan is this: doesn't it slow down settler #2 due to not having the floodplains for bouncing the population back up?

Definitely. I estimate the second settler to be delayed three turns. Three turn delay to get a 40-shield barracks complete is the tradeoff.

It was just an idea. Moving on...

	14-12-2002 04:54									#65
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It's not necessarily a bad idea. Nathan is going to test my 5 warriors/2 settler plan, perhaps you should test your 4 warriors/settler/barracks/settler plan and get back to us.

I could probably accept a 3 turn delay for settler #2 in exchange for a barracks. Basically, show me, and since I think you're actually better than I am at this stuff, I suspect you CAN convince me.

-Arrian

	14-12-2002 04:59									#66
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Actually, what I proposed was 3 warriors/barracks/settler/settler. Not too different from your original barracks plan, but roading to the next city before irrigating the floodplains. It makes sense only if we want our second city to the South/East. Details coming up!

	14-12-2002 05:55									#67
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Second settler done 1 turn after the 5 warrior plan:

T11: 15f, warrior complete. Order barracks.
T12: 17f, 3s.
T13: 19f, 6s. Move citizen to unchopped fur, auto-allocation sets new citizen to irrigated fur.
T14: Size 2. 0f, 11s. Citizen to grassland
T15: 2f, 24s (chop done), begin irrigation
T16: 4f, 27s citizen to chopped furs
T17: 6f, 32s irrigation done, move worker to grassland
T18: 8f, 37s begin road
T19: 10f, 0s barracks done, choose settler
T20: 12f, 5s, road done, move worker to next grassland
T21: 14f, 10s begin road
T22: 16f, 15s
T23: 18f, 20s road done, move to floodplains N of city
T24: Size 3. 0f, 25s irrigate, citizens on furs and roaded grassland
T25: 2f, 0s settler done, citizen to fp, move settler along road
T26: 5f, 1s irrigation done, road, build 2nd city
T27: 8f, 2s
T28: 11f, 3s. road done, move 2nd fp
T29: 14f, 4s. irrigate
T30: 17f, 5s
T31: Size 2, 8s irrigation done, move to furs, both citizens on fp
T32: 4f, 9s. chop
T33: 8f, 10s
T34: 12f, 11s
T35: 16f, 12s
T36: Size 3, 0f, 15s move 2 citizens on furs, 1 on fp
T37: 3f, 0s chop done, irrigate, Settler done

	14-12-2002 06:25									#68
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I tried Arrian's latest variant, and while I wasn't keeping careful count of turn numbers, it seemed to work perfectly.

Alex, with how long it would be between the time we build a barracks and the time we build our first unit that takes advantage of it, I think the two extra warriors would serve us better. The extra warriors will let us scout north and northeast in addition to Grog's northwest-oriented scouting, and that might find us some terrain that merits changing our plans for our settlers.

Nathan

	14-12-2002 07:17									#69
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I too like the 5 warriors, but I see merit in both. I'd like to hear some other's opinions.

-Arrian

	14-12-2002 07:24									#70
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Well, I stated before that I don't value the barracks before we meet someone, or expect to meet someone. IMHO a temple would be way more effecient in the long term.

DeepO

[edit:] I forgot... the 5 warriors looks to me like the best solution, even if we are going to lose money for a few turns to upkeep

	14-12-2002 10:21									#71
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How about a Temple and a Warrior instead of a Barracks? They cost the same.

So the tradeoff would be an early Temple versus a 5th Warrior and the third city one turn earlier (but the second one the same)

T11: 15f, warrior complete. Order Temple.
T12: 17f, 3s.
T13: 19f, 6s. Move citizen to unchopped fur, auto-allocation sets new citizen to irrigated fur.
T14: Size 2. 0f, 11s. Citizen to grassland
T15: 2f, 24s (chop done), begin irrigation
T16: 4f, 27s citizen to chopped furs
T17: 6f, 0s Temple done, choose Warrior, irrigation done, move worker to grassland
T18: 8f, 5s begin road
T19: 10f, 0s Warrior done, choose settler
T20: 12f, 5s, road done, move worker to next grassland
T21: 14f, 10s begin road
T22: 16f, 15s
T23: 18f, 20s road done, move to floodplains N of city
T24: Size 3. 0f, 25s irrigate, citizens on furs and roaded grassland
T25: 2f, 0s settler done, citizen to fp, move settler along road
T26: 5f, 1s irrigation done, road, build 2nd city
T27: 8f, 2s
T28: 11f, 3s. road done, move 2nd fp
T29: 14f, 4s. irrigate
T30: 17f, 5s
T31: Size 2, 8s irrigation done, move to furs, both citizens on fp
T32: 4f, 9s. chop
T33: 8f, 10s
T34: 12f, 11s
T35: 16f, 12s
T36: Size 3, 0f, 15s move 2 citizens on furs, 1 on fp
T37: 3f, 0s chop done, irrigate, Settler done

	14-12-2002 10:35									#72
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We don't have long to decide. A couple of days maybe.

To be honest, I have a hard time choosing between the 3rd Northern explorer (the 5th warrior) and a temple.

Nathan, this is ultimately your domain. We need you to make a decision (aided by the others, of course).

	14-12-2002 12:22									#73
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Until further notice, I still think the five warrior plan is the way to go, not that I've stopped listening.

I like the idea of the extra culture an early temple would bring, but there are two down sides. (1) With a temple replacing two warriors, we would only have two explorers instead of four unless we want to leave our capital undefended. And keep in mind the possibility, however small, that someone else might be heading south a bit to the right of where Grog's heading north. (2) A temple would be a permanent 1gpt drain on our economy, and it's going to be a long time before we grow EotS large enough for the temple to provide a meaningful happiness benefit to offset that on any kind of ongoing basis. In contrast, the financial drain of the extra warriors, although larger initially, will disappear when our second city is founded.

Nathan

	14-12-2002 15:37									#74
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Is it just me, or does anyone else suspect, that we're on an island. And if so, for what do we need lots of explorers?

	14-12-2002 16:04									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Is it just me, or does anyone else suspect, that we're on an island. And if so, for what do we need lots of explorers?

It's possible that we're on an island, but a civ on an island by itself with two luxuries, while possible, is extremely rare. So there's a pretty good chance of having a land bridge connecting us to something else.

On the other hand, the lay of the land is not looking like it favors someone's being able to sneak up on us. I'm tempted to go for a temple-based plan after all, with Grog moving 6-6 to look at the land north of what our expansion uncovered and Hack going 8-8 to look out from the top of the mountain directly to his north.
If they don't spot any incoming foreigners, we could switch to a temple and plan on having Gronk come back to guard the capital as soon as he finishes his exploration while Grog and Hack continue to map out the northern reaches.

I'm not sure whether I like this idea or not. Opinions?

	14-12-2002 16:55									#76
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I like the plan. If Hack moves 8-8-7, it will spot any intruders for a long time. It should mean leaving the capital undefended not risky at all. If he doesn't see someone in the next 3 turns, we should be safe for 8 turns, which is nearly enough for Gronk to return after exploration.

Another idea: what if Gronk, after returning to EotS, moves 8-9-9-9 and stays on the lookout on that mountain? with 2 lookouts (another one on a mountain to the West, close to where Grog is now) we see all incoming traffic... better than defending our capital with 2 warriors

DeepO

	14-12-2002 17:28									#77
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I'm starting to wonder more about the possibility that we're on an island by ourselves. I don't know about others, but when I play standard maps in SP, I essentially always have eight players. The odds of having a player alone with two luxuries may be significantly increased in 7-player games, especially on archipelago maps where one player in a 7-player game is likely to end up on a land mass that would have held two if there were eight players.

Nathan

	14-12-2002 17:50									#78
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To me it looks like the island that allways seems to accompagnie(sp?) pangea maps

I don't care if it is an island, as long as we are not completely surrounded by ocean.

	14-12-2002 18:12									#79
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If we are alone on an island, than a temple is the way to go, otherwise, the 5 warriors plan seems the best- early scouting is SO important, and others tend to agree.

	14-12-2002 18:19									#80
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It definately looks like a 2-civ landmass, but I'm not sure to the neighbours question yet. And there could be a whole lot of land to the North of us. So far, we seem blessed with our starting pos, let us hope we find a little bit more of land before we reach the Northern coast. But I'm optimistically: there seems to be 1, or a small patch of furs to the south, so I expect a patch, or some isolated incense to the North. 5 incense seems not enough for a standard map.

DeepO

	14-12-2002 19:31									#81
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay With a temple replacing two warriors, we would only have two explorers instead of four unless we want to leave our capital undefended.

Just to be clear, the Temple replaces one warrior, not two, as long as we road to the 2nd city site instead of irrigating the flood plains first.

	14-12-2002 19:46									#82
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I would vote for 5th warrior.
The situation is very much similar than in my recent PBEM duel with FP.
I had 2 different luxuries, plenty of both, and it seemed that i was alone on an island, but one distant corner of the supposed island were very thin land bridge to another landmass and there was his starting position.
Besides, we are on so low difficulty level that we wont be needing the temple for quite a while.

	14-12-2002 20:40									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Conqueror Besides, we are on so low difficulty level that we wont be needing the temple for quite a while.

For the happiness effect, we won't ever need the temple, except as a prerequiste for a cathedral. It's the culture which makes it a good choice...

DeepO

	14-12-2002 20:45									#84
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The original idea with the 5 Warriors plan was to get Settlers out sooner. We were chopping a lot of Forest and needed something to do with all those Shields, so the Barracks seemed like a good idea. Then it became apparent that Settlers weren't coming out as fast as they could. If alexman has found a way of fitting in a Temple and still build Settlers at almost the same rate, that's great. Even if we're not alone, 4 Warriors should be enough for now.


Dominae

	15-12-2002 10:20									#85
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I still favor the 5 warriors.

Preliminary scouting indicates that we will most likely have at least 1 neighboring civ, but think we've all seen maps that start out looking like an island or small continent and end up being a huge continent with many civs. We just don't know.

I love temples, I really do. Those of you who check out the strategy forum will know that. But if 5 warriors will allow us to fully scout our landmass quicker, and if we ARE alone, fine, we can punch out a temple then and still have a powerful cultural effect (though if we are alone on a 2-luxury continent, it's probably decently sized, and I would then argue for pottery as tech #2 and for a granary to settler pump from EotS, but that's another matter). To sum up, I vote 5 warriors.

Nathan, however, as leader of the Economists, has final say.

-Arrian

	15-12-2002 11:19									#86
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Nooo! Not a Warrior for a temple! Think of all those wasted shields!

Seriously, I would build a Temple now, then a barracks, and then I would take some War Chariots to go exploring. Grog and company are nice guys and everything, but they are SLOW!

	15-12-2002 16:17									#87
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I'm not convinced yet that we'll have immediate access to horses, but as the map was good to us so far, maybe we get lucky again. However, there is something else: would it be a crazy idea to have reg WC exploring, instead of vets? If we were to encounter another team, they wouldn't be scared to death to see a vet WC on their borders...

And we have a good chance of loosing against unforeseen reg warrior attacks, so they won't trigger our GA, or they are not guaranteed to trigger our GA. If we would have vet WCs on hills, we will likely win if they attack with a warrior, so have a badly timed GA, it could proof to be a serious incentive for them to start a war. with reg WCs, the chances are a lot lower.

DeepO

	15-12-2002 19:23									#88
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I suspect that if we don't find a military threat, it may be a while before building more units in EotS makes sense once we get in settler production mode. With irrigated flood plains, we should be able to balance food and production to keep EotS churning out settlers back to back (maybe with workers mixed in) for as long as we want to. Work only FPs and we grow in pop faster than we can build settlers. Work only irrigated furs and we can get shields for settlers faster than we grow. In between, there has to be an equilibrium point.

Nathan

	15-12-2002 21:11									#89
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Our Warriors are doing a fine job exploring as is. With five of them running around, we should finish exploring our continent by the time a War Chariot is built (assuming there's no "neck" directly North and then another big landmass). So when we finally decide to build Barracks and War Chariots, it will be for a military purpose. If there are no available targets, our WCs will be useless. Now that's wasted production.


Dominae

	16-12-2002 02:50									#90
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO For the happiness effect, we won't ever need the temple, except as a prerequiste for a cathedral. It's the culture which makes it a good choice... DeepO

Was just wondering, where do we need the culture, it wont have any effect on trading, since we are playing against humans.
And we already have a culture building (palace) in our capital, so that our borders have expanded to the maximum that we can use of.
Just one more tought: wouldnt it be good to have low culture in capital city, so that our city would not show on f11 screen, because the ranking there is mostly based on cultural value. It would be benefical to see others capitals and not showing ours in the f11 screen.