09-12-2002 06:46									#1
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Arrian's Plan with assistance from alexman
Changed to
The 5 Warrior variant
T2: build city, begin chop, allocate citizen to forest fur, build warrior.
T3: 1f, 3s
T4: 2f, 6s
T5: 3f, 9s, switch citizen to grassland tile.
T6: 5f, warrior complete, build another.
T7: 7f, warrior complete (chopping done), order another, begin irr.
T8: 9f, 1s. Switch citizen to fur tile.
T9: 11f, 4s. Irrigation done, move to next fur.
T10: 13f, 7s. Begin chop.
T11: 15f, warrior complete, build another.
T12: 17f, 3s.
T13: 19f, 6s. switch citizen to unchopped fur.
T14: Size 2, warrior complete. select another. Move 1 citizen to grassland.
T15: 2f, warrior complete (chop done). Irrigate. Select settler.
T16: 4f, 3s. switch 2nd citizen to 2nd fur.
T17: 6f, 8s, irrigation complete. Move across river to fp tile.
T18: 8f, 13s, begin irrigation.
T19: 10f, 18s, switch 1 citizen to fp [Delayed].*DONE*
T20: 13f, 21s. Irrigation complete, begin road.
T21: 16f, 24s. Switch back to furs only.
T22: 18f, 29s. Road done. Move to 2nd floodplain.
T23: Settler done. Size 1. Begin another, use fp. Begin irrigation.
T24: 3f, 1s.
T25: 6f, 2s. Irrigation done, road.
T26: 9f, 3s.
T27: 12f, 4s. Road done, move to fur
T28: 15f, 5s. Begin chop
T29: 18f, 6s. Switch citizen to irr fur.
T30: Size 2, 11s. Switch both to fp.
T31: 4f, 12s.
T32: 8f, 13s.
T33: 12f, 24s, chop done. Road.
T34: 16f, 25s.
T35: Size 3, 28s. Road done. Irrigate.
T36: Settler done, size 1, 4f (? need to test that one)*.

Current Tech Status
GS: Egypt - Ceremonial Burial and Masonry
Vox: Persia - Bronze Working and Masonry
Lego: Carthage - Alphabet and Masonry
GoW: China - Warrior Code and Masonry
Lux: Ottoman - Bronze Working and Masonry
Demo: Arabia - Pottery and Ceremonial Burial
Roleplay: Spain - Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial

Military Strength Comparison
No civs known.

I will add more information as it becomes good to do so.

Last edited by notyoueither on 31-12-2002 at 04:02

	09-12-2002 06:48									#2
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Thanks!!

	09-12-2002 21:42									#4
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can you top threads now?, that would be very handy

	09-12-2002 23:17									#5
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I asked Ming just this once.

	10-12-2002 02:46									#6
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NYE,

The T13 autoallocation works as I had hoped, I believe, but I need to test the T30 one. I should really run through this thing one more time just to make absolutely sure it's right.

I've also been meaning to test sticking a military unit (warrior or spear) between the two settlers, so we can escort them both.

I will try to do this tonight.

-Arrian

	10-12-2002 05:36									#7
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Ok, I've completed some more testing. I tested the normal barracks plan posted above, and then worked on throwing in a warrior or a spearman between the two settlers.

First, the standard plan:

T2: build city, begin chop, allocate citizen to forest fur, build warrior.
T3: 1f, 3s
T4: 2f, 6s
T5: 3f, 9s, switch citizen to grassland tile.
T6: 5f, warrior complete, build another.
T7: 7f, warrior complete (chopping done), order another, begin irr.
T8: 9f, 1s. Switch citizen to fur tile.
T9: 11f, 4s. Irrigation done, move to next fur
T10: 13f, 7s. Begin chop
T11: 15f, warrior complete. Order barracks.
T12: 17f, 3s.
T13: 19f, 6s. Move citizen to unchopped fur, auto-allocation sets new citizen to irrigated fur.
T14: Size 2. 0f, 11s.
T15: 1f, 26s (chop done), begin irrigation
T16: 2f, 31s.
T17: 4f, 36s, irrigation done, move to floodplain across river (west)
T18: 6f, barracks complete, choose settler. begin irrigation
T19: 8f, 5s, switch 1 citizen to fp.
T20: 11f, 8s, irrigation done, begin road.
**The Wheel discovered. I choose BW next**
T21: 14f, 11s.
T22: 17f, 14s. road done, move to 2nd floodplain
T23: Size 3, 0f, 19s, begin irrigation.
T24: 3f, 24s.
T25: 6f, 29s, switch 2nd cit to fp, irr done, road
T26: Size 1, 10f, settler done. chose another, send settler. Allocate to fp.
T27: 13f, 1s. road done, move to fur.
T28: 16f, 2s, switch citizen to fur. begin chop
T29: 18f, 5s.*settler can build this turn & use one of the furs. If so, it forces new 2nd citizen in EotS to fp tile*
T30: Size 2, 8s. Switch to both fp.
T31: 4f, 9s.
T32: 8f, 10s.
T33: 12f, 21s (chop done). irrigate
T34: 16f, 22s.
T35: Size 3, 25s. Irrigation done, begin road. Switch one more citizen to irrigated fur.
T36: Settler done.

I changed some of the citizen allocation, and I had a reason, but I now forget it. No matter, as the timing works out fine.

Warrior variant:

T26: Size 1, 10f, settler done. Choose warrior. Send settler.
T27: 13f, 1s. road done. move to fur
T28: 16f, 2s. switch citizen to fur. chop
T29: 18f, 5s. *settler can build this turn & use one of the furs. If so, it forces new 2nd citizen in EotS to fp tile, delaying warrior 1 turn*
T30: Size 2, warrior done. Settler. Switch EotS to 1fp, 1fur. Allow 2nd city to use other fur.
T31: 3f, 3s.
T32: 6f, 6s.
T33: 9f, 19s (chop done). Road. *BW done*
T34: 12f, 22s.
T35: 15f, 25s. Road done, irr.
T36: 18f, 28s.
T37: size 1. Settler done. Irr done. 0f, 0s.

Spearman variant:

T26: Size 1, 10f, settler done. Choose warrior (don't have BW yet). Send settler.
T27: 13f, 1s. road done. move to fur
T28: 16f, 2s. chop
T29: 19f, 3s. *I know I can optomize shields better, but this is necessary to get BW before finishing the warrior*
T30: Size 2, 0f, 6s. Switch both citizens to fp.
T31: 4f, 7s.
T32: 8f, 8s. **BW discovered**
T33: 12f, 19s (chop done). Road.
T34: 16f, spear done. order settler.
T35: Size 3, 3s. road done, irr.

The keys here are that the spearman variant is a very close thing - discovering BW in time is doable if we build our second city where I instinctively put it: 6, 6, 9 of EotS (E, E, NE), and playing with the slider for maximum effect, plus using fp for one more turn than is "optimal" to prevent finishing the warrior.

Last edited by Arrian on 10-12-2002 at 20:38

	10-12-2002 05:39									#8
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One more important thing, though I doubt there is much we can do about it: I encountered disease (T33 of the spearman test). I made sure to set the difficultly to Regent, so that wasn't it: even on Regent, floodplains are a double-edged sword.

-Arrian

	10-12-2002 20:14									#9
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More thoughts:

Though the spearman variant delays our 2nd settler, it does (I think) leave EotS in much better shape to bounce back and either punch out another or knock out a quick spearman and then another settler. The worker will finish the chop order on T43, which grants the shields for either 1/2 a spearman or 1/3 a settler. There is still one more forest to chop after that, too: the fur on grass across the river.

OTOH, using the warrior variant gets settler #2 out the door faster, and then the T38-T43 chop can be used for our first spearman as EotS grows again.

Anyway, we have until T26 to decide between the three options (assuming we go with the barracks plan, which it seems has majority support), and by then we should have a better idea of what's "out there."

-Arrian

	10-12-2002 20:51									#10
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Semi-random thoughts (on topic, at least!):

1. Settler production should be our top priority. Yes, we could potentially be attacked by Glory of War within the first 30 turns, but that is a small possibility (especially considering they may not want to go to war early). Far more possible is the geometric lag effect caused by putting off our Settlers.

2. The Barracks plan strikes me as odd. We're basically going to use it to produce Veteran Warriors and Spearmen until we hook up Horses. These units probably will not see battle (other than Barbarians, but who needs a Veteran Warrior against Barbarians?). So essentially we're building the Barracks early because we've got "extra" Shields from forest-chopping. I suggest producting more units instead, at the expense of maybe 1 or 2 gpt. There's plenty of time to build a Barracks once we're up and running. Incidentally, according to Arrian's plan, building units instead of Barracks gets a Settler out faster...see point 1.

3. From the map so far, we may very well be stuck on a small island. If further exploration confirms this, our turn by turn "forecast" will have to changed considerably (presumably to Settler upon Settler until we colonize the every inch of land). Needless to say, in this situation, we would not need a Barracks...see point 2.

4. Flood Plains and Forest are a great setup for a Worker factory. Perhaps we should invest in one as early as our third city, and set aside some land for doing so. Many Industrious Workers = major economic growth.

5. The location of our capital indicates that we may need to do a Palace jump at some point. Building a Temple or Barracks in the capital would not be a particularly effective use of Shields in this case.


Keep up the great work!


Dominae

	10-12-2002 21:18									#11
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Dominae,

I have to admit those points make sense. I just jotted down some things, and if we ditch the barracks, I can put out 5 warriors by turn 15 and then settler #1 on turn 23.

In the barracks plan, we build 3 warriors (T11), a barracks (T18) and a settler on T26.

The no-barracks plan increases our upkeep costs slightly, which will slow our discovery of the wheel a bit. It also produces 2 extra explorers and kicks a settler out the door 3 turns earlier.

That's worth debating. The plans (barracks & no barracks) diverge on T13, because on T14 we either build warrior #4 or continue on towards a barracks.

-Arrian

	10-12-2002 22:02									#12
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Arrian, I'm starting to get the hang of your build queue, even if I have to visualize most of the information in my head (and I thought I was good with numbers...)!

Having 5 Warriors and 1 Worker for 9 turns means an upkeep of 19 gold (18 + 1 from the fourth Warrior). That's bad. However, I still think Barracks is not the way to go. So, a solution is to maximize food at the expense of Shields. This means chopping one fewer Forest tile, and getting the irrigation on the Flood Plains up sooner (I'm aware of the chance of disease). But, even with a slight upkeep and a change in queue, I think the extra units and faster Settler will serve us very well. Our River start means that we're probably doing at least okay research-wise, compared to the other teams.

Edit: Another thought: 5 Warriors is an excellent deterrent at this stage in the game against any Archer rush by Glory of War or another team. Since they're not German, they will not have Spearmen escorts, and so will have to move their units very carefully (i.e. slowly) towards our city.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 10-12-2002 at 22:08

	10-12-2002 22:26									#13
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Dominae,

There is a problem with going for the fp ASAP: wasted worker moves. Two of them, at least.

I suppose I could work it out just to see... later (I need lunch).

5 warriors + 1 worker is a little rough in terms of upkeep, it's not TOO bad, and offers other advantages: increased exploration and defense. The part that will really hurt, actually, will be T23-T26. On T23 we build a settler, dropping EotS back to size 1 and adding yet another unit to support. One T26 we can build a second city, alleviating most of the strain.

-Arrian

	10-12-2002 22:32									#14
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I think adding that extra explorer(s) instead of early barracks is the way to go. 3 turns of haeavy upkeep will be dwarved if we get to bump into a few more goody huts or find a close neighbor to trade with, although i have no exprience in this sort of calculations and simulation, i like Dominae's idea, and the cost doesn't seem too bad.

	10-12-2002 22:43									#15
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If there are any significant number of barbarians, I suppose we could reasonably count on barbarians to get our early warriors promoted. And PtW's less aggressive barbarians mean a regular warrior who pops barbarians from a hut won't automatically be triple-teamed, so the chances of getting killed in such a situation would be lower. Also, getting regular warriors promoted to elite would be unlikely to be worth much since we can't get leaders from barbarians and we'll probably want to upgrade to swordsmen before we use the warriors in battle unless circumstances really force our hand.

I'm a little annoyed at the prospect of wasting shields chopping to get a warrior (especially since the timing is unlikely to line up exactly right unless we waste more food potential than we've already wasted). But in the long term, we'll get the shields back from founding new cities earlier (not just our second city but also whatever future cities are settled from it).

On the other hand, I think Dominae is underestimating the value of producing veterans instead of regulars. Regular spearmen upgrade to regular pikemen, and then to regular musketmen, riflemen, and so on, so whenever war does come, they'll still be regulars. Veterans, in contrast, upgrade to veterans. That's four thirds the value for our upgrade gold, since we're upgrading four hit points' worth of fighting capability instead of three. The same goes for warriors upgrading to swordsmen and beyond, and WCs to knights and beyond. And vets are a notch closer to becoming elites and then leaders. So I truly hate building any more regular units than I have to.

Arrian, I hate to put you to the trouble, but could you test a queue where we (1) build warriors and the first setler ASAP and (2) squeeze a barracks between our first and second settler by working mostly or entirely our irrigated fur tiles rather than flood plains? That would still give us a barracks before we start building spearmen, and while growth would be slower than using flood plains, we would avoid or reduce the risk of catastrophe should disease strike.

Nathan

	10-12-2002 22:46									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian There is a problem with going for the fp ASAP: wasted worker moves. Two of them, at least.

Darn. Wasted moves are bad...

quote: Originally posted by Arrian The part that will really hurt, actually, will be T23-T26. On T23 we build a settler, dropping EotS back to size 1 and adding yet another unit to support.

We're only founding our second city on the fourth turn after our Settler is complete? I thought we were going very a very close (3-tile) spacing. Plus, we will surely be making use of roads.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian One T26 we can build a second city, alleviating most of the strain.

All of the strain, actually. Unless we go for a big military really early, our cities should keep us out of support costs (4 units per city in Despotism, regardless of size).


Dominae

	10-12-2002 22:59									#17
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay On the other hand, I think Dominae is underestimating the value of producing veterans instead of regulars.

Probably!

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Regular spearmen upgrade to regular pikemen, and then to regular musketmen, riflemen, and so on, so whenever war does come, they'll still be regulars. Veterans, in contrast, upgrade to veterans. That's four thirds the value for our upgrade gold, since we're upgrading four hit points' worth of fighting capability instead of three. The same goes for warriors upgrading to swordsmen and beyond, and WCs to knights and beyond. And vets are a notch closer to becoming elites and then leaders. So I truly hate building any more regular units than I have to.

Honestly, I'm all for building Barracks and producing Veterans. But a super-early Barracks, achieved by chopping lots of Forest and at the expense of the earliest-possible Settler, is pushing it. The Forest will still be there if we decide to build a Barracks once we start forming a real army (Spearmen and War Chariots). For now, Settlers and Warriors are the top priority.

I think most of us are planning for a very early attack. This a wise move, for sure, but we should also keep in mind that we most probably will not start fighting before we got a good amount of WCs up and ready. Again, there is plenty of time to build Barracks and crank out WCs just a bit later.


Dominae

	10-12-2002 23:37									#18
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Dominae,

The second city I founded in my testing was founded 3 tiles away (6, 6, 9, build), and there are no roads to speed the settler to the site.

Nathan,

Sure, I can test throwing in a barracks after settler #1.

By the way, not that it is really relevant, but I tend to build a bunch of regular spearmen in my SP games. They are mostly for defense vs. barbs and/or an AI warrior rush. After my initial expansion is done, I build barracks and veteran attack troops... and I don't intend that my old regular spearmen (which yes, eventually become regular mechanized infantry) will ever see battle. This is of course probably a bad idea in MP.

-Arrian

	10-12-2002 23:51									#19
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I never upgrade regs, or I should have cash in abundance. And even then, in many cases upgrading costs more then disbanding the obsolete unit in corrupt cities, and building a new one in your core cities...

DeepO

	11-12-2002 00:02									#20
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Nathan:

Picking up after settler #1 is built (5 warrior/settler plan)...

T23: settler built. Size 1, 0f. begin irrigation (2nd fp), use fur, order barracks.
T24: 2f, 3s.
T25: 4f, 6s, irr done, road.
T26: 6f, 9s
T27: 8f, 12s, road done, move to fur
T28: 10f, 15s, chop
T29: 12f, 18s
T30: 14f, 21s
T31: 16f, 24s
T32: 18f, 27s
T33: Size 2. 0f, barracks done, chop done. Irrigate. Use 1 fur, 1fp. Order settler.
T34: 3f, 3s.
T35: 6f, 6s. Irr done, road.
T36: 9f, 9s.
T37: 12f, 12s, road done (furs connected). Move to last fur on this side of river.
T38: 15f, 15s. begin chop, switch to both furs
T39: 17f, 20s.
T40: 19f, 25s.
T41: settler done, size 1.

I think that's right. Minimal shield waste (2 on T33).

-Arrian

	11-12-2002 00:13									#21
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Arrian, I like the most recent queue a lot. If we're going to build a Barracks, just after the first Settler is a good time. This is a bit far ahead, but do we go straight to WCs after the second Settler (assuming our Horses are hooked up), or take the more cautious Spearmen route?

3650BC shot just came in. The Wheel is at 14 turns right now (yay! Rivers and Luxuries). I think this is good enough to go with the 5 Warriors plan. With the growth of the city and upkeep costs balancing each other out, we should get The Wheel in ~14 turns.


Dominae

	11-12-2002 01:06									#22
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I'm not thrilled at the delay in the second settler (and thus all subsequent settlers) from the capital. That probably offsets the advantages of getting our second city founded earlier unless we find some good bonus food terrain. Still, the extra early warriors would come in handy, even if their upkeep is expensive. (Remember that counting our worker, we'll be at six units, seven during the time our first settler is heading for the city site.)

Arrian, I'm willing to bet that if you work an extra flood plain a turn earlier, EotS could grow to size 3 before the second settler a turn sooner and still produce the settler at the same time. That would give us a little extra food toward our third settler.

	11-12-2002 01:11									#23
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Nathan,

Actually, I originally had a switch to floodplain one turn earlier, and the settler does indeed complete on the same turn, but I was actually trying to minimize use of floodplain at that stage. Nothing is worse than being a couple of turns shy of building a settler and getting hit with disease.

-Arrian

	11-12-2002 01:21									#24
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Ok, another possible variant: 5 warriors, then 2 settlers.

Picking up on T23...

T23: settler done, build another. Use fp. Begin irrigation
T24: 3f, 1s.
T25: 6f, 2s. Irr done, road.
T26: 9f, 3s.
T27: 12f, 4s, move worker to fur.
T28: 15f, 5s. Chop
T29: 18f, 6s. Switch citizen to fur.
T30: Size 2, 11s. Switch both citizens to fp.
T31: 4f, 12s.
T32: 8f, 13s.
T33: 12f, 24s (chop done). Road
T34: 16f, 25s.
T35: Size 3, 28s. Road done. Irrigate
T36: Size 1, 4f (? I think), settler done.

-Arrian

	11-12-2002 01:27									#25
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So our 3rd settler would be 5 turns faster than with a barracks? Seems good, unless we encounter the GoW 8 tiles north of us

DeepO

	11-12-2002 01:31									#26
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I like the two-settlers-in-a-row variant best. Good job using the chop to speed the second settler up.

I hate gambling on flood plains early, but refusing to gamble is itself a gamble. We don't seem to be blessed with first-class terrain from what we've seen so far, so I'm not sure we have the luxury of playing it safe.

Nathan

	11-12-2002 01:42									#27
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Nathan,

True. Things a looking a tad ugly so far w/respect to terrain.

-Arrian

	11-12-2002 02:10									#28
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Hm, I had assumed we wanted a Barracks in our early build queue...Personally, I always preferred exclusive Settler/Warrior queues anyway. If Arrian can make it happen (with minimal Flood Plain risk), that's good news.

If we end up 8 tiles away from Glory of War and they decide to attack us ASAP, we'll actually be glad we built 5 Warriors instead of a Barracks.


Dominae

	11-12-2002 02:27									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Hm, I had assumed we wanted a Barracks in our early build queue...Personally, I always preferred exclusive Settler/Warrior queues anyway. If Arrian can make it happen (with minimal Flood Plain risk), that's good news. If we end up 8 tiles away from Glory of War and they decide to attack us ASAP, we'll actually be glad we built 5 Warriors instead of a Barracks. Dominae

As long as we're building back-to-back settlers rather than military units, there's no point to a barracks, so speeding up the second settler rather than building a barracks makes lots of sense.

	11-12-2002 02:43									#30
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Hmmm, I think I like the 5 warrior, 2 settler variant.

We will have no enemies near us to the South most likely. I am guessing we only border 1 civ at most (to the North) or we are on an island.

If we are near the end of a peninsula with one civ to the North we will want to expand in that direction as fast as possible. Ditto if we are on an island, but for different reasons.

/Edit. I am not sure I am piecing things together properly. Could you post a complete 5W/2S plan, Arrian?

Last edited by notyoueither on 11-12-2002 at 02:49