10-12-2002 00:06									#1
	Constitution : state the [TBA]s Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

OK, our constitution is nearing completion, but there's one problem : many things are still to be decided. Should we hold election every month ? Every 2 weeks ? Every 10 turns ?
Should we need 66% for the constitution to be amended ? 75 % ? 51% ?

This thread is intended to discuss what we want regarding these figures. Please state your opinion !

The [TBA]s we have to decide are :

1. The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate.
   
2. The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
   
3. Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.
   
4. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.
   
5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
   
6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed
   
7. Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
   
8. The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.

Edited by Tiberius (here, revenge is sweet, Spiffor I'm editing your post )

Edited by Spiffor : Do you see now how much pleasure it brings ?
Edited by Tiberius : Too bad this edit spam doesn't rise your post count


The results after 10 votes:

1. The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate
2 month - 2 votes
one month – 7 votes
3 weeks – 1 vote

2. The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
one month – 9 votes
3 weeks – 1 vote

3. Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.
66% - 3 votes (I considered 67% being 66%; we can decide this later)
51% - 7 votes

4. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.
Note: [TBA] of the Senate or of the votes?
51% - 2 votes
66% - 7 votes
60% - 1 vote

5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
3 days or 50% - 6 votes
4 days or 50% - 2 votes
3 days or 66% – 1 vote
3 days or 75% - 1 vote

6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed
51% - 8 votes
75% - 2 vote

7. Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
7 days or 66% - 1 vote
5 days or 66% - 8 votes
5 days or 75% - 1 vote

8. The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.
51% - 5 votes
66% - 5 votes

Last edited by Tiberius on 06-01-2003 at 04:02

	10-12-2002 00:12									#2
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Great idea, Spiffor. This thread will be alot easier to digest and discuss than the main constitution thread!

	10-12-2002 00:14									#3
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1. one month
2. one month
3. 66%
4. 50%+1
5. 3 days, 50%
6. 50%+1
7. 7 days, 66%
8. 66%

Thanks for doing it, Spiffor. I suppose it should have been my job (given the fact that I was updating lately the Constitution draft).

	10-12-2002 00:22									#4
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(Note : when I say 50% majority, I mean 50% of voters + 1)

1 & 2 :
3 weeks look good to me. I fear that 2 weeks would be too short, and one month too long.

3 : I say a 50% majority. We are builders, and I assume we'll all be prudent before declaring war. If the majority of the team want to declare war, that really means there are good reasons. If there is a draw, the satus quo is kept (no presidential tie-break)

4 : 66%. Less would mean too much ministerial instabilty, but more would mean we're sure not to oust someone ever, except if he is really really terrible.

5 : I say 3 days or 50%. For short term policy (like "where should we move our warrior", I say a one day poll is valid if he got 50% participation

6 : 50% of the whole senate (9 people), except if we include war declarations and amendments in this rule.

7 : I say 5 days (I think a week is beginning to be too long, re the master builder poll), or 66% participation.

8 : We should amend the constitution with the same majority clause than what we need to adopt it. If we only need 50% majority to adopt the constitution, it would be only normal to amend it with 50%

	10-12-2002 02:17									#5
	Re: Constitution : state the [TBA]s Put an end to popups!

quote: The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate.

One month, possibly even two months.

quote: The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].

One month.

quote: Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.

51% - what Spiffor says (THAT many builders wishing to wage war really means something...).

quote: The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.

whatever... 2/3 is fine with me, 51% as well.

quote: A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.

3 days, 50% (currently, that means 9 votes - as everybody must have noticed, a poll with 9 voters is a pretty "successful" one... we do not have that many 9-vote-or-more polls... )

quote: As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed

51%

quote: Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.

5 days, 66%

quote: The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.[/list]

What Spiffor says - the same as what we adopt the Constitution with. 51%

Note, please, that from the mathematical point of view, the "50% + 1 vote" clause is not what you want to say. For a Senate with odd number of members (say, 19), 50% is a non-integer number, say 19/2=9.5 votes. +1 raises it too high - say, to 10.5 votes. A notion gaining 10 votes (a majority!) would not pass, as 10<10.5, even though it is obvious that it should. 51% does the job for Senates up to 100 members.

Oh, and Spiffor, thanks for taking care of this!

	10-12-2002 03:21									#6
	Re: Constitution : state the [TBA]s Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

1. 1 month.
2. 1 month.
3. 51%
4. This is a tough one. Maybe a 60% compromise?
5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least 4 days or if at least 50% of the Senate voted in it.
6. This isn't necessary if 50% of the senate voting for any option is used, but if it isn't, this one should be 50%.
7. 5 days or 66%
[*] The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.
8. 50%. I would normally see this as too low, but we're a small group and I think we should have a fluid constitution.

	10-12-2002 10:56									#7
	Re: Constitution : state the [TBA]s Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

1. and 2. One month, simply because it's easier to track.

3. and 4. 2/3, these are serious decisions and should require greater than 50%. I do not agree with the argument for 50% on War polls. Just because we are builders does not mean all will be slow to war.

5. 3 days and 2/3, A 50% vote by the Senate on day 1 can easily be reversed by day 3. But I not too concerned, so I would not oppose 51% (per vondrack)

6. 51%

7. 5 days and 2/3

8. 2/3, serious decisions warrant a 2/3 majority IMHO.

	10-12-2002 12:04									#8
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1. The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate.

1 month

2. The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].

1 month

3. Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.

67%

4. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.

The "This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass." part sounds to me like we are requiring certain number of people to vote to consider it valid. Is this the case? I think it would be a good idea. I would say 50% of the Senate should agree on the removal, not 50% of the people who voted. And not 51% of the Senate, as 50% is clearly the majority considering that the person to be removed is also a member of the Senate.

5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.

3 days, 75%. In a case where a decision absolutely must be made before the 3 days are over, any poll result is binding. This might seem strange but considering our egalitarian approach I feel that this is the only logical decision. Otherwise we would implicitly acknowledge that the president (or whoever makes the move) can make a better decision than those who voted. If I understand the situation correctly, this is not what the majority believes here (see veto rights and such).

6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed

51% seems to be the logical answer here but I will say 75% keeping in mind that the time while the poll is open might be used to provide additional information that might change the opinion of those who already voted, and in certain cases might change the poll option themselves.

7. Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.

Not sure what to say here. First reaction would be to make it difficult to declare war, of course. But then declaring war one turn earlier or later might be a question of life or death. If someone lands 100 knights next to a major coastal city, will we wait 5-7 days to declare war? Or even 2-3 days for the majority of the citizens to visit the forum? I think we need to refine this and separate the issue of self-defense versus agression. Assuming that the intention here was to set the limit for an agressive war (and for the ammendement/election/removal part), I will suggest 5 days or 75%.

For self-defense, perhaps based on the fact whether there are enemy units within attack range to any of our cities (not necessarily in our territory!), I will suggest 18 hours or 100%.

8. The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.

67%

Last edited by delmar on 10-12-2002 at 12:25

	10-12-2002 16:24									#9
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The results so far:

1. The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate
one month – 5 votes
3 weeks – 1 vote

2. The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
one month – 5 votes
3 weeks – 1 vote

3. Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.
66% - 3 votes (I considered 67% being 66%; we can decide this later)
51% - 3 votes

4. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.
Note: [TBA] of the Senate or of the votes?
51% - 2 votes
66% - 3 votes
60% - 1 vote

5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
3 days or 50% - 3 votes
4 days or 50% - 1 vote
3 days or 66% – 1 vote
3 days or 75% - 1 vote

6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed
51% - 5 votes
75% - 1 vote

7. Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
7 days or 66% - 1 vote
5 days or 66% - 4 votes
5 days or 75% - 1 vote

8. The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.
51% - 3 votes
66% - 3 votes

	10-12-2002 16:40									#10
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quote: Originally posted by delmar If someone lands 100 knights next to a major coastal city, will we wait 5-7 days to declare war? Or even 2-3 days for the majority of the citizens to visit the forum?

In the situation you've described somebody would most probably post a poll: "Declare or not war", while the FM would try to negotiate with the other team in the meantime. Should the negotiations fail and the poll is still invalid before the deadline, the President can declare war. "How come?", could be the logical question.
Well, Section 1 from the Article II of the Contitution says:

quote: - When the wishes of the Ministers do not come to the President in time, or are harmful due to changes in game, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team.

The wishes of the Senate didn't come in time (the poll is still invalid), not doing anything would be harmful, so he can act in the best interest of Legoland by declaring war.
What worries me though is that "Only the Senate can declare war". Hmm, I'm not that sure anymore.
You see, this is why I wanted a High Council in the first place, a ruling body that could have decide quickly in crisis situations, not leaving in the same time all the decision power to the President. I was overruled in this issue. I suppose we could add an ammendment for declarations of war.

	10-12-2002 17:56									#11
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quote: Originally posted by delmar 4. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass. The "This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass." part sounds to me like we are requiring certain number of people to vote to consider it valid. Is this the case? I think it would be a good idea. I would say 50% of the Senate should agree on the removal, not 50% of the people who voted. And not 51% of the Senate, as 50% is clearly the majority considering that the person to be removed is also a member of the Senate.

Good point about the 50% and not 51% votes needed. Unless the person in question votes for the removal, too... In which case he should certainly be removed...

quote: Originally posted by delmar 5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it. 3 days, 75%. In a case where a decision absolutely must be made before the 3 days are over, any poll result is binding. This might seem strange but considering our egalitarian approach I feel that this is the only logical decision. Otherwise we would implicitly acknowledge that the president (or whoever makes the move) can make a better decision than those who voted. If I understand the situation correctly, this is not what the majority believes here (see veto rights and such).

I guess you are a bit confused about this clause. Its purpose is to define, when poll results become binding for the president. We wanted to prevent a rushed poll with, say, three votes, 2 of them for & 1 against something, be binding (for the President, but that implies that the whole team will be affected). On the other hand, we wanted polls everybody had a fair chance to vote in (i.e. those opened for a reasonable period of time), be binding even if they do not receive the absolute majority of the Senator's votes. Should someone not vote in a three day poll, he will have to put up with that he let others decide (even if "others" were just two or three only). 75% of the Senate is currently 14 votes - that would NEVER happen and effectively render short polls posted under emergency situations impossible. As it seems, a poll that currently gets 9 votes is a poll where almost all our active members voted. If a poll gets 50% of the possible Senate votes, then it should be binding, as it apparently expresses the will of the majority of active members.

I believe that it goes without saying that the President or VP, whoever plays the turn for us, will consider the opinions expressed in polls even if they are not binding. They will just not be bound to act accordingly. If the President ignores the will of majority frequently (even if he was not formally bound to), I guess he will be unlikely to win the next elections anyway...

quote: Originally posted by delmar 6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed 51% seems to be the logical answer here but I will say 75% keeping in mind that the time while the poll is open might be used to provide additional information that might change the opinion of those who already voted, and in certain cases might change the poll option themselves.

51% of ALL POSSIBLE Senators' votes, not 51% of the voting Senators. Once more than half our members vote for something, it is clear that the poll result is determined. No way it could change. If a new info appears, another poll should perhaps be posted (as the current one can't reflect any change of member's minds anyway).

	10-12-2002 19:17									#12
	Re: Re: Constitution : state the [TBA]s Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep 6. This isn't necessary if 50% of the senate voting for any option is used, but if it isn't, this one should be 50%.

Let's suppose the following rule will pass: "A poll is declared valid if opened for at least 3 days period or if at least 50% percent of the Senate voted in it.".

We want to decide something. Let's say that after one day, 60% of the senators have voted.
Situation 1
The result is 50%-50%. Obviously we won't close the poll, waiting 2 more days for the others to vote, too.
Situation 2
All those senators have voted the same option (100% votes from 60% of the senators) and thus there is no reason to keep the poll open.

	10-12-2002 20:58									#13
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack 75% of the Senate is currently 14 votes - that would NEVER happen

Never say never, and anyway I don't think that this is a problem. I think this clause is for normal situations, and 3 days for a poll seems like a good guideline for normal polls.

quote: and effectively render short polls posted under emergency situations impossible.

Which was exactly the reason why I suggested that any vote is closed/final/binding/sacred/whatever that has a clear majority and won't make sense after the next turn.

quote: I believe that it goes without saying that the President or VP, whoever plays the turn for us, will consider the opinions expressed in polls even if they are not binding. They will just not be bound to act accordingly. If the President ignores the will of majority frequently (even if he was not formally bound to), I guess he will be unlikely to win the next elections anyway...

I personally don't have a problem with the above approach, I just feel that it is inconsistent with the fact that the team voted against a presidential veto 10 to 1.

quote: 51% of ALL POSSIBLE Senators' votes, not 51% of the voting Senators. Once more than half our members vote for something, it is clear that the poll result is determined. No way it could change. If a new info appears, another poll should perhaps be posted (as the current one can't reflect any change of member's minds anyway).

Probably I have a different interpretation about what it means that a poll is final and binding. I thought it means that there can't be another poll on the same topic. From the above, it seems like this is not the case (are we sure about this? pretty big surprise to me...), in which case my comments are obviously not valid.

	10-12-2002 21:32									#14
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quote: Originally posted by delmar Which was exactly the reason why I suggested that any vote is closed/final/binding/sacred/whatever that has a clear majority and won't make sense after the next turn.

"Clear" majority? Explain, please. Is that a simple majority or some other majority?

quote: Originally posted by delmar I personally don't have a problem with the above approach, I just feel that it is inconsistent with the fact that the team voted against a presidential veto 10 to 1.

Veto power means the President can do things that are clearly against the will of the majority of the team. However, letting him do whatever he sees fit unless the majority or a significant part of the team instructs him otherwise is perfectly fine.

quote: Originally posted by delmar Probably I have a different interpretation about what it means that a poll is final and binding. I thought it means that there can't be another poll on the same topic. From the above, it seems like this is not the case (are we sure about this? pretty big surprise to me...), in which case my comments are obviously not valid.

I do not think we have ever discussed the issue of repeater polls. Valid, thus binding means that the President shall do whatever the poll tells him to.

	10-12-2002 21:47									#15
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack "Clear" majority? Explain, please. Is that a simple majority or some other majority?

I am glad you asked!

I meant "simple" majority and I used the word "clear" instead of adding the following sentence: "If the poll result is a tie, the president, of course, can choose the option he likes best."

quote: Veto power means the President can do things that are clearly against the will of the majority of the team. However, letting him do whatever he sees fit unless the majority or a significant part of the team instructs him otherwise is perfectly fine.

This is a good observation. Are we saying then that "the president can't go against the majority of the senate but he can go against the majority of the voters (up to a certain limit)"? I have to point out that this still implies that the president is above the rest of the citizens (or doesn't it?), which is not necessarily bad just needs to be understood by everyone.

quote: I do not think we have ever discussed the issue of repeater polls. Valid, thus binding means that the President shall do whatever the poll tells him to.

And I assume we expect him to do it ASAP. Is that right? If so, I still think that this approach might result in a situation where the information changing a lot of people's opinion might come too late simply because the president already proceeded as outlined in the binding vote.

	10-12-2002 22:17									#16
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quote: Originally posted by delmar This is a good observation. Are we saying then that "the president can't go against the majority of the senate but he can go against the majority of the voters (up to a certain limit)"? I have to point out that this still implies that the president is above the rest of the citizens (or doesn't it?), which is not necessarily bad just needs to be understood by everyone.

Well, yes, that's what we say, at least IMO. The President has (even without the veto) a greater power in this regard, but at the same time, he has a greater responsibility, because he will be blamed (and perhaps later deprived of his power), if he does something against the will of many and fails. OTOH, even following the "voice of the people" may sometimes be wrong or not optimal, at least. That's how it works in RL, too - it is up to the President to stand up to the challenge. (Note: and that's why I, as the VP, feel free to play our turn prior to the 18-hour period being over only when there is actually nothing to decide).

It is actually a consequence of that we say that to enforce a plan/notion, at least [TBA] part of the team must want it (preventing "a terror of evil, yet active minority" ). Otherwise, the President may do as he sees fit. The next elections will show what others thought about his deeds.

quote: Originally posted by delmar And I assume we expect him to do it ASAP. Is that right? If so, I still think that this approach might result in a situation where the information changing a lot of people's opinion might come too late simply because the president already proceeded as outlined in the binding vote.

Yes, such things may happen. Such is the life. It will be up to the President to decide, whether he consciously disobbeys a binding poll, actually executing his right to "prevent harm to Legoland" or not.

	11-12-2002 02:40									#17
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I understand the person playing the game (P or VP) are allowed greater power. As Tiberius showed, the constitution states,

When the wishes of the Ministers do not come to the President in time, or are harmful due to changes in game, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team.

In the States, the President acts accordingly. It's call an Executive Order. This helps in RL timeliness and in other RL difficulties.

I think this power is understood by the citizens. When (if?) the constitution is appoved, the power will be official.

	11-12-2002 04:21									#18
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Yes, such things may happen. Such is the life. It will be up to the President to decide, whether he consciously disobbeys a binding poll, actually executing his right to "prevent harm to Legoland" or not.

I thought I would point out that the issue here is not to make it difficult or easy to produce a (valid/binding/likely-to-be-good) decision (and thus make the life of the president simple or complicated), rather how quickly we decide that we have a decision that is not likely to get better.

Specifically the following:

6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed

in my interpretation means that if X% of the senate voted for something then we are dead sure that it's cool. You (and most, I believe) are saying X=51, I am saying X=75, perhaps 67.

The only questionable effect of a high value for X in this context is that most polls will be closed only after 3 days (well the number of 3 is up to debate, I would choose 3). A would expect this to be a desirable situation and not a disadvantage. And since in case of emergency the vote would become binding almost immediately (at least according to my suggestion), I definitly don't see this as a huge problem.

So to summarize, I would like a system that:

1.) Gives at least 3 days for normal decisions, unless 75% of the Senate wants the same thing (ie. we are dead sure that we don't need more time to think).

2.) Once the 3 days are over, any number of votes are binding to the president (because by default he is not better than any of us ).

3.) In case of emergency, the poll becomes binding 15 minutes before the save game must be sent further with whatever number of votes we have at that time (again, because by default he is not better than any of us ).

4.) The criteria are different for starting a war for aggression and for self-deffense.

I believe the numbers/methods I suggested define the above system. I state this only because I do find it difficult sometime to translate a [TBA] value into plain English and I might have missed something.

Now about the binding-or-not-binding issue. I think the person playing the game can ignore any decision simply because he is making the moves. At the end of the day, I don't see a big difference between ignoring a binding or a not binding poll, or even going against a 75% majority decision, because ultimately the "punishment" for all this is that people won't vote for this person again or there will be a movement to remove him before his term is over. Polls with less votes are less likely to result in such action, of course, but that's not because it wasn't binding, rather because less people might be offended. And that's about it.

Or did I miss something and there is some extra torture for ignoring a binding vote?

	11-12-2002 04:58									#19
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quote: Originally posted by delmar I thought I would point out that the issue here is not to make it difficult or easy to produce a (valid/binding/likely-to-be-good) decision (and thus make the life of the president simple or complicated), rather how quickly we decide that we have a decision that is not likely to get better. Specifically the following: 6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed in my interpretation means that if X% of the senate voted for something then we are dead sure that it's cool. You (and most, I believe) are saying X=51, I am saying X=75, perhaps 67. The only questionable effect of a high value for X in this context is that most polls will be closed only after 3 days (well the number of 3 is up to debate, I would choose 3). A would expect this to be a desirable situation and not a disadvantage. And since in case of emergency the vote would become binding almost immediately (at least according to my suggestion), I definitly don't see this as a huge problem. So to summarize, I would like a system that: 1.) Gives at least 3 days for normal decisions, unless 75% of the Senate wants the same thing (ie. we are dead sure that we don't need more time to think).

delmar, just go through the polls posted so far and count the votes. I am sure you will realize that the 75% clause you propose is just totally unrealistic. We have too many inactive members (that are still Senators, as every member of the team is automatically a Senator). How many polls we had that saw 75% of our members voting? 75% means, for all practical purposes, the same as not including the clause at all.

quote: Originally posted by delmar 2.) Once the 3 days are over, any number of votes are binding to the president (because by default he is not better than any of us ).

This is how it is currently done.

quote: Originally posted by delmar 3.) In case of emergency, the poll becomes binding 15 minutes before the save game must be sent further with whatever number of votes we have at that time (again, because by default he is not better than any of us ).

This would just make things messy, as you would have to define what an "emergency situation" is etc. Also, it is often technically not possible to wait with playing the turn that late. Although we do have 24 hours to play a turn, P/VP may not be available for the whole period. Besides, the Constitution says nothing about when P/VP are supposed to play turns, so they could avoid the 15-minute-prior-to-deadline-makes-whatever-binding clause easily by playing ahead of the deadline.

quote: Originally posted by delmar Now about the binding-or-not-binding issue. I think the person playing the game can ignore any decision simply because he is making the moves. At the end of the day, I don't see a big difference between ignoring a binding or a not binding poll, or even going against a 75% majority decision, because ultimately the "punishment" for all this is that people won't vote for this person again or there will be a movement to remove him before his term is over. Polls with less votes are less likely to result in such action, of course, but that's not because it wasn't binding, rather because less people might be offended. And that's about it.

True. The definition of "bindingness" is there to make sure everybody understands where is the breakpoint, after which the P/VP are supposed to obbey the will of the team irrespective of what they themselves think. They certainly CAN disobbey, but they risk being ousted from the office for ignoring the orders.

	11-12-2002 05:41									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by vondrack 75% means, for all practical purposes, the same as not including the clause at all.

Yes, and I think that's just fine. From the look of it, most people will vote for 51% or similar, but I hope that there will be a choice for 67% as well (I gave up the 75%), so that I can vote for it.

quote: This would just make things messy, as you would have to define what an "emergency situation" is etc.

Emergency is when the poll loses its meaning after you pressed "ENTER or SPACEBAR". Further interpretation is up to the person who is in charge of the button.

quote: Also, it is often technically not possible to wait with playing the turn that late. Although we do have 24 hours to play a turn, P/VP may not be available for the whole period.

Lack of precise wording distorted the meaning of my proposal, I am afraid!

I would like to see a system that gives some incentive to the the P/VP to follow the results of a poll, if they must make a decision and there is a poll, regardless of how many people voted. Not enact a rule that keeps the P/VP awake 24 hours a day.

So how about this: "blah blah blah becomes binding 15 minutes before the deadline or whenever the P/VP wants to finish the turn".

quote: Besides, the Constitution says nothing about when P/VP are supposed to play turns, so they could avoid the 15-minute-prior-to-deadline-makes-whatever-binding clause easily by playing ahead of the deadline.

Well, now they can't!

	11-12-2002 06:01									#21
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quote: Originally posted by delmar I would like to see a system that gives some incentive to the the P/VP to follow the results of a poll, if they must make a decision and there is a poll, regardless of how many people voted. Not enact a rule that keeps the P/VP awake 24 hours a day.

The incentive is already there - the next term elections. Under your proposal, P/VP might get bound even by a poll placed two hours before they decide to play the turn, in which just two or three members voted. Such a poll should obviously not be binding, as it cannot be considered representing "the will of the team"...

quote: So how about this: "blah blah blah becomes binding 15 minutes before the deadline or whenever the P/VP wants to finish the turn".

IOW, this would mean: every poll, that will be pointless once the turn is played, is binding, irrespective of for how long it was posted or how many voters voted in it. IMHO, that's not right.

	11-12-2002 06:29									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well, I find it difficult to argue about this binding issue as everything seems to boil down to this:

quote: Originally posted by vondrack The incentive is already there - the next term elections.

However you are right that this:

quote: P/VP might get bound even by a poll [..] in which just two or three members voted.

doesn't sound good. I am tempted to propose further refinements to work around such problems, like for example requiring a (low) minimal participation even in emergency situations, but I guess it's just not worth the effort. So for this question:

5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.

I will simply say: 3 days or 75%.

It just occured to me that defining "binding" such that going against it would result in immediate removal from post and maybe banning from Legoland might make an interesting option. It wouldn't necessarily help us winning the game (although that doesn't seem to matter, does it now?! ), and I guess it would require way too much additional discussion and modification to the existing rules so I am not seriously proposing it, just wanted to throw in the idea and see if anyone had any comments on it.

	11-12-2002 06:56									#23
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quote: Originally posted by delmar It just occured to me that defining "binding" such that going against it would result in immediate removal from post and maybe banning from Legoland might make an interesting option. It wouldn't necessarily help us winning the game (although that doesn't seem to matter, does it now?! ), and I guess it would require way too much additional discussion and modification to the existing rules so I am not seriously proposing it, just wanted to throw in the idea and see if anyone had any comments on it.

I think that's a terrible idea, in all honesty. The constitution has been written in such a way that nothing results in immediate removal from post, and definately not in immediate banning. The High Court is designed to deal with any constitutional infractions, and to decide on the appropriate punishment.

Plus, the idea of the "next election" is the real punishment. If, in real life, the Pres goes against the will of the people, he will be voted out of office. He will not be impeached (ok, if it was something really bad) nor exiled from the country. Under the system you suggest, Jack could be kicked out of office for fortifying the warrior instead of moving it as was decided in the poll. Doesn't that seem a bit unreasonable?

	11-12-2002 07:38									#24
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX I think that's a terrible idea, in all honesty. The constitution has been written in such a way that nothing results in immediate removal from post, and definately not in immediate banning. The High Court is designed to deal with any constitutional infractions, and to decide on the appropriate punishment.

I think you are assuming that I want to keep everything pretty much as is currently, only with the "minor" modification that going against a binding vote would result in impeachement.

This is not the case.

What I would like to think through (with the help of your comments, if you have time) is how a system designed around the rule that going against binding votes results in some serious punishment could look like. As I said, I don't want to implement this system here, I am just curious.

quote: Plus, the idea of the "next election" is the real punishment. If, in real life, the Pres goes against the will of the people, he will be voted out of office. He will not be impeached (ok, if it was something really bad) nor exiled from the country.

I guess my curiousity comes precisely from the feeling that this Demo Game is whole lot different than a real democracy. Even though US presidents have a great power, George W. Bush can't personally bomb Iraq or buy oil from them for 1000 gpt. He must follow the laws, or else he won't be president for long (well, in theory). Here, the mistake of a single person can ruin the whole "country" and also the "greatness" of a single person can easily save the ass of the collective.

Or maybe not, we shall see!

	12-12-2002 12:44									#25
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Only 6 people have voted so far. Don't you want our Constitution finished?

	12-12-2002 21:41									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Only 6 people have voted so far. Don't you want our Constitution finished?

I am not sure everyone realized that this is the thread where we vote. Even though after your summary post, where you listed how many people voted for what, I suspected that this is the case, from the rest of it this does look like a discussion thread. Don't we want a regular "poll" thread for each of these TBA numbers? There are a lot, so it won't be convenient, but at least it would be clear.

	13-12-2002 00:51									#27
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The results so far:

1. The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate
2 months

2. The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
one month

3. Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.
51%

4. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.
Note: [TBA] of the Senate or of the votes?
66% - 3 votes

5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
3 days or 50% - 3 votes

6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed
51% - 5 votes

7. Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
5 days or 66% - 4 votes

8. The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.
66% - 3 votes

	16-12-2002 13:41									#28
	Results after 7 votes Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Nimitz, I didn't fully understand your post. I suppose you took my post (the last one, with the results), edited it and kept only those options that you wanted to vote, and this is your vote. Correct ?

--------
The results so far (if my previous supposition is correct):

1. The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate
2 month - 1 vote
one month – 5 votes
3 weeks – 1 vote

2. The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
one month – 6 votes
3 weeks – 1 vote

3. Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.
66% - 3 votes (I considered 67% being 66%; we can decide this later)
51% - 4 votes

4. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.
Note: [TBA] of the Senate or of the votes?
51% - 2 votes
66% - 4 votes
60% - 1 vote

5. A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
3 days or 50% - 3 votes
4 days or 50% - 2 votes
3 days or 66% – 1 vote
3 days or 75% - 1 vote

6. As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed
51% - 6 votes
75% - 1 vote

7. Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
7 days or 66% - 1 vote
5 days or 66% - 5 votes
5 days or 75% - 1 vote

8. The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.
51% - 3 votes
66% - 4 votes

	19-12-2002 12:23									#29
	Remove this text

People who voted already:

Tiberius
Spiffor
vondrack
Kloreep
lmtoops
delmar
nimitz

The active members of our team who haven't voted yet:

Colonel Kraken
Jack_www
Odin
quantum_mechani
redstar1
Sharpe
ZargonX
(I apologize if I forgot somebody)

Please vote, so we can finalize the Magna Chartaginia!

	19-12-2002 13:03									#30
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Here's my ballot:

1. one month
2. one month
3. 51%
4. 66%
5. 3 days, 50%
6. 51%
7. 5 days, 66%
8. 51%