10-12-2002 20:56									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I feel the same way. How the hell are you going to get in the city? Is that tram part of the MTA?

Yes, its run by the MTA, but as you know, its tokens only. I don't know if it will be affected by the strike or not. Even if it isn't affected it would take me at least an hour to walk downtown.

Also, I have my finals next week. If the strike goes ahead, they will be postponed till January.

	10-12-2002 21:00									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: After three years on the job, a person driving a bus in New York City or cleaning a subway car makes about $50,000 a year base pay. That person gets -- ready? -- eight weeks off a year. Eight weeks, with full pay. In addition, the worker only has to do one specific task each day, like clean two subway cars or something like that. After he or she is finished, they don't have anything else to do. So more workers have to be hired. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,72651,00.html Could someone please tell me if this is true or just crap I heard flipping past Fox News?

I have heard this from other sources, so I would say its probably true. It makes me sick that they still want more and are prepared to strike for it.

	10-12-2002 21:03									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ned, public workers have just as much right to strike against their employers as private workers. A boss is a boss, and the fact that you are a government body shouldn't exempt you from dealing fairly with your employees and prevent them from striking when you don't. The public has no right to expect its servents to work as slaves.

Che, your really over the top with the "working man" rhetoric.

NYC is in a budget crisis, Bloomy is talking about cutting police, fire, and other essential services.

NY spends close to two billion annually on the homeless problem, and that will be cut severly if you give in to this strike.

This city isn't a bottomless money pit, what would YOU do, cut aid to the homeless so that a worker making $40,000 can make $50,000?

That is what the situation is here.

Cal, that's rough.
There is a private bus I can take to wall street, but it costs $3.50 each way, and I'll bet the traffic will be horrible.

	10-12-2002 21:08									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I have heard this from other sources, so I would say its probably true. It makes me sick that they still want more and are prepared to strike for it.

Name me anyone who doesn't expect, as they spend more time on a job, that their pay will not increase.

The blanket generalizations about MTA workers as lazy do-nothings is what makes me really sick here. And I doubt any of you know a single one or what they really do.

I don't think they will strike, and I certainly hope they don't. But to use that as leverage for negotiations is standard. It would be a PR disaster for them to strike, but the union leadership AND the city seem intent on painting themselves into a corner.

	10-12-2002 21:11									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The blanket generalizations about MTA workers as lazy do-nothings is what makes me really sick here. And I doubt any of you know a single one or what they really do.

Do you? How close to reality is the picture I heard on TV?

	10-12-2002 21:15									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Name me anyone who doesn't expect, as they spend more time on a job, that their pay will not increase.

Why should their pay increase when their job performance is poor, and they are overpaid already!? They get 8 weeks vacation for ****s sake!!

quote: The blanket generalizations about MTA workers as lazy do-nothings is what makes me really sick here. And I doubt any of you know a single one or what they really do.

Do you?

In any case, the NYC subway system is poorly run. There is no such thing as customer service, the trains are always packed, organisation is almost non-existent. Go to Paris or London if you want to see a real mass transit system.

	10-12-2002 21:15									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Name me anyone who doesn't expect, as they spend more time on a job, that their pay will not increase.

In a recession, when the economy is terrible?
Most are worried about staying employed, let alone raises.

quote: The blanket generalizations about MTA workers as lazy do-nothings is what makes me really sick here. And I doubt any of you know a single one or what they really do.

Wrong again Dear Boris, in fact I know I guy that's worked for the MTA for 11 years, he is fond of talking about being home at 4 when his shift ends, because they all cover for each other, and they have their work done by 11 (He's in track matenence).
Tell me, how many times have you missed a train due to a slow subway clerk? (in the days before Metro cards)
You might be the first NYer I ever saw defend the MTA.
Even it's own workers consider it a joke.

quote: I don't think they will strike, and I certainly hope they don't. But to use that as leverage for negotiations is standard. It would be a PR disaster for them to strike, but the union leadership AND the city seem intent on painting themselves into a corner.

We will see how it goes, but it looks bad.

	10-12-2002 21:16									#38
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I don't understand why the nannystate should forbid them to strike. Why isn't it just an employer/employees issue ?

	10-12-2002 21:17									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Do you? How close to reality is the picture I heard on TV?

A woman I work with husband's is a subway worker. He is a hard and responsible worker.

Think of the source for the picture you have on TV. They will find the most extreme examples they can. It's Fox, for christ's sake. Painting all of them with the same brush is absurd.

Now if the law forbids them to strike, so be it--I can't really say I condone them violating the law, especially at this time of year and under the current circumstances. But I don't object to them making tough talk to get a better deal from the city. If the city caved into 24%, I'd be equally as upset, though. Like I said...n-e-g-o-t-i-a-t-e.

	10-12-2002 21:17									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How close to reality is the picture I heard on TV?

In my opinion, its pretty close. Almost every transit worker I have encountered is surly, rude, and generally unhelpful.

	10-12-2002 21:19									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov A woman I work with husband's is a subway worker. He is a hard and responsible worker.

Good for him, he is a rare breed.

	10-12-2002 21:20									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 You might be the first NYer I ever saw defend the MTA.

It's not so suprising considering he walks to work...

	10-12-2002 21:21									#43
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The economy of the entire region is dependent upon NYC. Why should the city have to shoulder the burden alone? NY state, as well as New Jersey and Connecticutt should also be picthing in. If NYC goes, so do they.

I never get "down-state's" (or up-state in this case) hostility towards their primary economic engine. They hate the big cities that are responsibly for making them wealthy. Same BS in Illinois, Florida, California. Hell, the Feds outta be kicking in more. If NYC goes, so goes the nation. It's like the driver who curses his car engine when it's not running well but refuses to get it fixed.

BTW, Chicago transit workers make more than NYC transit workers.

	10-12-2002 21:23									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Why should their pay increase when their job performance is poor, and they are overpaid already!? They get 8 weeks vacation for ****s sake!!

I'd like to see official verification of the 8 weeks vacation thing. Certainly I don't think that's true for most of them.

And again, "overpaid" is your opinion...they would obviously think otherwise. I think Jack Welch was overpaid...

quote: In any case, the NYC subway system is poorly run. There is no such thing as customer service, the trains are always packed, organisation is almost non-existent. Go to Paris or London if you want to see a real mass transit system.

Organization problems are largely the fault of the MTA management, not the workers. You can't blame a secretary for a CEO not doing his job right. The city management has responsibility here, too.

And Paris and London don't have nearly the logistical nightmare and amount of traffic the NY subways see every day. Considering the design of the tracks, their age, etc., the fact that they do move 8 million people in and out of this city every day is a small feat, and they do do it reasonably effectively. Certainly far more effectively than most large cities.

	10-12-2002 21:24									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Good for him, he is a rare breed.

More unfounded generalizations.

ANd I don't walk to work, I take the subway every day. I could walk, but in this weather it would be rather cooooold.

	10-12-2002 21:24									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia They get 8 weeks vacation for ****s sake!!

Just because most Americans get shafted on vacation doen't mean all Americans should be. We should all get 8 weeks, like some civilized European countries have.

	10-12-2002 21:24									#47
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why should the city have to shoulder the burden alone?

Because it was thier timid behavior before the unions in the past that got them into this mess?

	10-12-2002 22:05									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia In any case, the NYC subway system is poorly run. There is no such thing as customer service, the trains are always packed, organisation is almost non-existent. Go to Paris or London if you want to see a real mass transit system.

The subway trains aren't always packed, only when during rush hours.

Besides, there are only 2 million people in Paris. It doesn't count.

	10-12-2002 23:15									#49
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Well, as a user of the NY city Subway and Bus system for the last decade, i do not see what caligastia is talking about. The system is bare bones, yes, and with what one pays for it, I don't see how it could be much more. There are service issues, but those are funding ones, not worker ones. And managers are workers too. mybe its the managers screwing up?? No, couldn't, they are college educated! I mena, after going those four years to a high prestige pirvate university, I can safely say that everyone who goes to college is competent and usefull....

First of all, the Governor, not the Major, has control over the MTA, so if any politician needs to get his ass moving its Pataki, not Bloomberg.

I agree that the union demands are excessive, given the budget issues of the MTA. the city and the state. First, the MTA needs to raise fares. With the new passes, most people pay less then 1.50. if anyting, many in this city have seen a fare reduction over the last 8 years. They system can't handle that. They have to overcome pasanger resistance, as someone has to pay for service.
Second: the MTA needs to move their offer up, but they simply cannot grant what the union wants, and the union must bring its demands way down.

As for what to do with striking workers: Thank god none of you on this thread will ecver hold serious public office.

	10-12-2002 23:24									#50
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First, the MTA needs to raise fares.

No, you need to raise gas taxes and funnel the money into mass transit. The two things that every city needs less of are cars and urban sprawl.

	10-12-2002 23:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Well, as a user of the NY city Subway and Bus system for the last decade, i do not see what caligastia is talking about. The system is bare bones, yes, and with what one pays for it, I don't see how it could be much more. There are service issues, but those are funding ones, not worker ones. And managers are workers too. mybe its the managers screwing up?? No, couldn't, they are college educated! I mena, after going those four years to a high prestige pirvate university, I can safely say that everyone who goes to college is competent and usefull....

Nor is every moron who takes five minutes to make change...let's see, one...two....three

quote: First of all, the Governor, not the Major, has control over the MTA, so if any politician needs to get his ass moving its Pataki, not Bloomberg.

He won't touch it.
He has said the MTA must SHOW it's losing money if they want more state assistance.

quote: First, the MTA needs to raise fares.

Now THERE'S a solution.
Your the guy that should be kept out of office, the LAST thing New Yorkers need is another fare hike.

quote: With the new passes, most people pay less then 1.50. if anyting, many in this city have seen a fare reduction over the last 8 years.

It should be even lower.
4 million people use the system dailey.

quote: They system can't handle that. They have to overcome pasanger resistance, as someone has to pay for service.

So let's stick it to the strap hangers, right?

quote: Second: the MTA needs to move their offer up, but they simply cannot grant what the union wants, and the union must bring its demands way down.

They are overpaid as it is.

quote: As for what to do with striking workers: Thank god none of you on this thread will ecver hold serious public office.

Unions were good in the ol days of the 1930s, when workers were abused.
Now THEY do the abusing, with the help of their friends, like friend GePap here.
Thank god guys like you aern't calling the shots, or the fare would be through the roof.

I'm interested in hearing why you think every New Yorker should pay a fare hike for an aging system run by clowns, so that transit workers can get a 20% raise.

	11-12-2002 00:11									#52
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Chris62:

Fares need to rise. After the many changes done to the system in the mid 90's ridership rose, putting a significant strain on the system, which I can see first hand. And with new fare-payment systems it kept going down. It is fiscally irresponsible to demand even lower fares when the system is as it is, and I find the notion that it is all the fault of labor cost simply idiologically biased. Transit workers aren't unutrined workers. ny one of you people asking for their heads could not do their jobs without training, and certainly more training than most common private sector jobs (I love those idiots that think driving large vehicles, or on off tracks, is easy). As trained workesr, they deserve high pay. And I bet you that it is not conductors, but signalmen, mchanics and so ofrth that make the most money (yes, the TWU includes trained mechanical professional, but I guess you people nevr thought of that)

Fares need to go up to 2.00, as well as a rise in the price of weekly and monthly passes. That way, the average fare to be paid will be closer to the notion of 1.50.

Also Chris, do you live in NYC? If not, then why the hell do you care? This one rider is telling you that a fare increase is needed.

	11-12-2002 00:12									#53
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"I don't understand why the nannystate should forbid them to strike. Why isn't it just an employer/employees issue ?"

Hershell: Because it's the nannystate that's employing them.

Re the anger displayed here, it's probably mostly due to the fact that Bloomberg raised property taxes drastically in the city to close a budget deficit. It seems like most understand the need to do this. This also gives Bloomberg a bully pulpit to hammer away at the union demands, which he is using to good effect, apparently.

"We should all get 8 weeks, like some civilized European countries have."

Che: Well, until this is the accepted vacation time economy-wide (like, 500 years from now), this seems overly generous.

Last edited by DanS on 11-12-2002 at 00:26

	11-12-2002 00:27									#54
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Is there any European country that has 8 weeks vacation at all?

	11-12-2002 00:29									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Is there any European country that has 8 weeks vacation at all?

France?

	11-12-2002 00:32									#56
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On top of their 35h week? seems a bit much even for France...

	11-12-2002 00:35									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin On top of their 35h week? seems a bit much even for France...

I was just guessing anyway.

	11-12-2002 00:38									#58
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I tried to look it up even if the use of the word 'vacation' on google isn't that effective. It seems to be quite common for up to eight weeks vacation in France partly due to a large number of special dates. The legal minimum is five though. Don't think any country has more than France. Might be wrong, lets see if some self proclaimed expert pops up (it's apolyton OT after all...).

	11-12-2002 00:47									#59
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Fares need to go up to 2.00, as well as a rise in the price of weekly and monthly passes. That way, the average fare to be paid will be closer to the notion of 1.50.

No way.
I would NEVER support another fare hike.

quote: Also Chris, do you live in NYC? If not, then why the hell do you care? This one rider is telling you that a fare increase is needed.

This is another rider telling you we sure as hell don't need that.

We need the MTA to account for what it does with the money it makes now, they have been reluctant to open the books to inspection.

I have been riding this system for years, it's aging and poorly run, and it's emploees and overpaid and unmotivated.

You bet I live in NY.

	11-12-2002 00:54									#60
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quote: Because it's the nannystate that's employing them.

Why should that change anything? Workers should be prohibited from organizing because their employers have extreme amounts of authority over them?