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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:24
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To me it is a fantasy to say that we can improve the system without fare increases.
First of all, I don't think the MTA workers are overpaid (even if I do see their current demand as impossible to meet). You could not star paying them less and the only staff cutting measure I see worth a damn is getting rid of the token booth operators.
The system needs new trains, more trains on certain lines, we need to connect path and LIR to the subway more efficently(and that federal money alone won't cut it), plus one day perhaps they will finish the second avenue line. They need to upgrdae the buses in some areas. Even if labor cost saty the same (which would not be so great for workers as we all know the cost of living in the ciy always goes up, specially in housing) they need to increase revenue (and I don't think the waste reduction will be enough :they never are, as people like to talk of masive waste as a way of avoiding further input of money)
For all those reasons, regarless of what the public says, fares must go up. If you bet the monthly pass for $67 bucks, and you use it for 2 trips every day (week-ends and weekdays), that's a $90 dollar value for which you paid $67. If you did it regularly, you would have to pay $82 (countin the free 11th trip). So, for those people using the monthly pass, they are spending about $1.20 a fare, which has not been the fare since about 1994, or a fare cut in general, specially if they had a two fare trip back in the days of the two fare system.
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Caligastia
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Gepap-
How much do you want to bet that service doesnt improve ONE IOTA after the fares go up and the workers get their pay increase?
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gsmoove23
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Gepap-
How much do you want to bet that service doesnt improve ONE IOTA after the fares go up and the workers get their pay increase? |
? The pay increase should be put in because the MTA isn't making money, not because we want better service. One thing at a time.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Gepap-
How much do you want to bet that service doesnt improve ONE IOTA after the fares go up and the workers get their pay increase? |
As cost of living has gone up since the last contract was signed, the transt workers deserve some pay hike, though not what they want.
Chris: the state funds the MTA, which is why the governor appoints he board and why he has the greatest control. So, no, given pour taxes, it shouldn' be free, as it would mean higher taxes statewide. More money must come from fare hikes. servce did imporve markedly in the last few years which is why new riders poured in, putting greater strain on the whole system, and as I states, many people have seen their average fares drop due to the monthly and weekly passes. So te system is beign asked to do more, with less. That enevr works.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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OK. Striking in this case is ****ing stupid. These ****ers already make more than the national average (and that's assuming they all make the low end salary), and get 1/6  of the year off in paid vacation time.
And the poor deprived bastards want more? **** off, they can do my job and I'll take theirs. Oh wait, doing my job would require a bit more intelligence than theirs (and even a trained monkey could do my job).
I think people should be able to strike. Anyone. In any job. You don't have to work if you don't want to, that seems quite reasonable.
The flip side, though, should be that if you strike, the company can fire you at will. You should receive no legal protection for not living up to your agreements. If you walk off the job, you, in effect, quit, and should be treated as such by the company you work for. Anything the company does over and above that is done from their generosity - they shouldn't have to do anything but tell you to **** off.
Further, public transportation should be privitized. I don't want the government running transportation any more than I want them running schools.
So, in summary:
-Privitize the system
-Fire any worker who strikes
-Hire new workers at more reasonable wages, with reasonable defined as whatever wage people will accept
-Eliminate any legal protection for unions, other than acknowledging a person's right not to work if they don't want to
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gsmoove23
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More accusations about their current incomes but no sources? I've been looking on the net and I just can't find the info can anyone supply a source?
Doesn't the company have the right to fire em anyway? The question is, if its an effective strike they can't fire everyone who walks off and have newly trained workers in a reasonable amount of time. Why are you upset DF? The workers are just exploiting an advantage collectively, fully within their rights.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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I agree they have the right to strike, but don't you think that shutting a city down over something silly like that is wrong?
I have the right to walk down the street and call people stupid. Does that mean I should?
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Caligastia
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They don't have the right to strike, its illegal.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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Oh, and by the way, if a company seriously threatens to fire every worker who strikes, don't you think that would encourage workers to tell the unions to **** off? I mean, no one is going to give up a good, well-paying job in today's job environment over the demands of their union. At least no reasonable person.
And maybe the company (or in this case, the city) should offer non-striking workers an extra incentive, such as, say, a 1% raise or a bit of extra vacation time for that year, just as an increased effort to **** over the unions and remove their stranglehold. Hell, I'd tell my union (if I had one) to **** themselves in exchange for an extra week off, or for a Christmas bonus of a thousand bucks.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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Cali, striking should never be illegal. It should be a person's prerogative to not to work, just as it should be a company's prerogative to shitcan them for choosing not to work.
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Caligastia
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When they have 8 weeks vacation already, I doubt the prospect of more would tempt them very much.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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No, but the threat of losing their job, in today's job market, along with a possible small added incentive - nothing big, just a little something - would be enough to convince enough people to stay, and they could run the place long enough for more workers to be hired and trained to replace all those who were fired due to their own idiocy.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Cali, striking should never be illegal. It should be a person's prerogative to not to work, just as it should be a company's prerogative to shitcan them for choosing not to work. |
Isn't this the case already? Nobody is forcing anyone at gunpoint to show up for work.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
No, but the threat of losing their job, in today's job market, along with a possible small added incentive - nothing big, just a little something - would be enough to convince enough people to stay, and they could run the place long enough for more workers to be hired and trained to replace all those who were fired due to their own idiocy. |
Possibly, but it's a threat they probably couldn't make good on. They would need to have workers to replace the ones fired ready to go.
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gsmoove23
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Bloomberg is being a little overblown on the whole thing though. Major cities outside the US frequently have transit strikes and the world doesn't end.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Possibly, but it's a threat they probably couldn't make good on. They would need to have workers to replace the ones fired ready to go. |
Then let them strike, randomly fire, say, 5% of the strikers, and tell everyone else to either come back by tomorrow or they're all fired too.
gsmoove,
quote:
DF, these are all tactics that could be used in the ugly business of negotiation. Shutting down a city, firing workers, incentives to those who stay. They all have a cost, the onus is on the unions and management to come to a resolution before these actions are necessary, not the unions themselves. |
Negotiation is fine, but the position of the city should simply be this: "You're level of output and difficulty of your job does not justify a large, or really even any, raise. Sorry. Work harder and better next year, and depending on the economy, we'll see. For now, though, you get nothing. If you strike, you will be shutting down a major city and probably contributing to the death and injury of innocent people. Further, you will all be fired. Now, if the union decides to strike, you don't have to strike along with them. Remember, if you get fired, which you will be, it won't be easy to find another job. But if you don't strike, and tell the union to shove it, we'll reward you with a larger Christmas bonus. Which is in the best interest of you and your family - no job, no Christmas bonus, and no job prospect, or a good, well paying job, with job security, and a large Christmas bonus?"
Any reasonable person would tell the union to **** off. Of course, maybe I'm asking to much in expected people to be reasonable.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Then let them strike, randomly fire, say, 5% of the strikers, and tell everyone else to either come back by tomorrow or they're all fired too.
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I'm not sure if they could actually do that or not. If they could it would probably work.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
People don't like Fox News. I already posted that anyway. |
Well they might just have to take it. I can't find any other source.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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Cali, why couldn't they?
It might be illegal, I have no idea what the law is, but I think we can both agree that it SHOULDN'T be illegal.
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gsmoove23
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DF, you seem to be under the illusion that all transit workers are easy to replace, but there are many highly trained individuals within the organization. Furthermore, the scare tactics you suggest might work if the strike organization wasn't strong, because if it was the rest of the union would undoubtedly say **** off to the management knowing full well that the management couldn't follow through on the bluff. As for the quality of their work they would quickly prove their worth through their inaction which would result in the city hemmorhaging(?) money from all orifices.
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11-12-2002 00:55
and made our SI ferry free(woohoo!). Guliani liked us, the bastard. 
Fine I'll sift through the news myself.
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