11-12-2002 01:44									#1
	which is the most game breaking unit? Inflate your Upload Space

Game breaking means that, when one player get's access to a unit first (either by tech lead or by having numbers of predeccessing troops to upgrade easily)


Horseman : First unit with the ability to retreat with a good attack value. A ancient era Horseman rush can be very powerful indeed.

Swordsman : These guys, while not upgradable , have an attack of 3, which is quite powerful, and a good defence. No other Unit (available to all civ's) can live up to a combined attack/defense value of 5

Knights : An attack of 4, with a defense of 3 says it all. If you get these first, you'll probably be still be fighting spearmen, and the odd pikemen. Like Horsemen, a good rush of these is very powerful.

Cavalry : These come with attack 6, defense 3 and a scary movement of 3. Bliztkrieg with guys is easy. The best defenders you're initally likely to come against , are musketmen with 4 def, if not pikemen/spearmen, who Cav will cut to bits. 3 movement means they can retreat from Any opponent, and Leader Generation is quite possible. This one is my chosen choice. And 'Stop the cavalry' has just stated playing... what a coincidence


Infantry : An defence of 10, coupled with the same attack as Cav means quite a unit. Struggling in a war? Draft a few dozen of these guys and you'll be unbreakable. No-one will be able to even touch you until Tanks. Thier attacking potential, with a movement of one is questionable though, but as they say, Attack starts with the Defense!.

Tanks : The Ability to blizt, coupled with a monsterous attack value of 16 will allow you to streamroll your opponents into submission. A movement of 2 is not great but the ability to attack twice a turn really is big.

Modern Armor : These are the absolute daddy. Coming a great price you have the unit of all units. Blitzcreig can be done by even the poorest strategist using MA. Indeed, a poorly defended AI city can be taken by just one of these guys. Perhaps the scariest thing about these monsters is the price, meaning they can really be produced on mass.

Tactical Nuke's : The Nuke is deadly powerful, and with just one nuke you can take out the Enemy's capital putting absolute chaos into your opponents empire. For several turns they will not have widespread access to Luxuries or Strategic resources. If the campaign is planned carefully, you can cripple thier resource network Forever. A big weakness however is the distance/range may not be enough to reach your target.,they are not very usually useful in standard warfare, as pollution and terrain damage make your would-be cities useless.

ICBM's : The Same advantages as above but combine infanite range. Any target anyway is reachable instantly. With these boyz you can indefinatly isolate the AI Capital. They dont come cheap though.

	11-12-2002 02:21									#2
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None of the above. The only "game breaking" unit that I have ever come across, and I say this because they have kicked my butt on more than one occasion, are the Japanese Samurai 4-4-2. These units are terrifying if you don't have a proper defense set up.

	11-12-2002 02:29									#3
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iroquois mounted warriors
or maybe berzerkers from PTW

	11-12-2002 02:30									#4
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I'm pretty sure everything is terrifying without the proper defense, MosesPresley.

	11-12-2002 03:20									#5
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I meant to say, this is NOT including Unique unit's, but units everyone can build.

	11-12-2002 04:37									#6
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I'm pretty sure everything is terrifying without the proper defense, MosesPresley.

The reason I said that was because the Samurai usually come early enough in the game, ie new city expansion is starting to end and there are plenty of border cities that have only a couple or less of spearmen in them. These border cities may also not be connected to the roads yet. I can usually defend them from knights, because I can kill the knights due to their 3 defense. The 4 defense of the Samurai make them tough to stop.

I don't consider them to be game breakers. They just often break my strategy. Most of the UU's are fairly powerful.

	11-12-2002 05:00									#7
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Yet another Banana:
Artillery. With artillery the player (and ONLY the player) can mass artillery and batter down a metro.

12 strength x 2 RoF vs. 8 strength x 3 RoF of the Bomber, which the AI uses. Duh, that's equal, so aside from the bomber's greater cost 100 shields vs. 80, I suppose it's not so bad.

	11-12-2002 05:24									#8
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By the time I have cavalry, the game is over, in most cases. The AI simply cannot withstand a determined cavalry charge unless I have been remiss in keeping my tech lead, and they're fortified with riflemen.

	11-12-2002 06:29									#9
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Well, I think it can be different in different games - it just depends on when you get the decisive edge. Recently for me its been cavalry. Invading with cavs against spears, pikes or even muskets is a great leader fest. You just need to use them before the enemy gets nationalism.

	11-12-2002 08:10									#10
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Jaybe:

I would save that 12x2 is better than 8x3. It is not linear. The advantage of bomber is the much larger range and the infinite movement that means they never get caught outside of a city.

	11-12-2002 08:12									#11
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My experience had been that Cavalry are the unit that pushes the game to a foregone conlcusion. Tanks and MA just mop up the details. By the end of cavalry, I usually control my start landmass and either a chunk of another major landmass or a decent size island. Game Over. (Mostly on Monarch)

	11-12-2002 08:24									#12
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Jaybe, I almost included Artillary, i have always liked it's power. and as for the 12*2 and 8*3 thing, it's an example of inbalance on the bomber side, Why have a rate of fire of 3 when the bombard is barely adequete to take a hitpoint. I like the bomber for the range tho.

	11-12-2002 17:19									#13
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I have to admit to having downgraded cavalry to a movement rate of 2 in my game. I still find that seeing an enemy swordsman scares me the most when I haven't got them yet.

	11-12-2002 18:34									#14
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I'd have to say cavalry. If you go straight for Military Tradition, you end up with a huge chunk of game where you have 6 attack cavalry and the best defense (UU's not included) is a 3 defense pikeman. That's the only time (that I can think of...) during which you have a 2:1 advantage over the defensive units.

To get to tanks with 16 attack you have to first get Replacable Parts and the 10 defense infantry. By the time you get the 24 attack modern armor, 18 defense mech infantry is usually available. Granted you could go right for Synthetic Fibers in the Modern Age before anyone discovers Computers, but I don't think it makes as big a difference that late in the game as cavalry can in the mid-game.

	11-12-2002 18:43									#15
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my favority is also the cavalry.
as UU i actually prefer the rider (4,3,3) instead of the samurai (4,4,2) because in imho that extra movement is more worth in an agressive blitzkrieg than that extra defense:
- move front, attach, retreat
- move onto hills (+50% defense) and attack from there in the same turn
- retreat from defending knights/samurais

artillery is great for cracking strong defence but
a) too slow (move OR bombard)
b) small range
c) too many misses
d) too often destruction of things you might want to keep (granary, courthouses, etc.) before you destroy the things you actually want to destroy (barracks, walls, units)

i mostly use arty in the first attack wave (bordering cities). from then on fast forward. i'll lose more units but at least i don't need to worry about war weariness if i've conquered the enemy in 5 turns...

	11-12-2002 19:28									#16
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MA rock (my vote), but I wouldn't call it a game breaker.

	11-12-2002 21:16									#17
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quote: Cavalry : These come with attack 6, defense 3 and a scary movement of 3. Bliztkrieg with guys is easy. The best defenders you're initally likely to come against , are musketmen with 4 def, if not pikemen/spearmen, who Cav will cut to bits. 3 movement means they can retreat from Any opponent, and Leader Generation is quite possible. This one is my chosen choice. And 'Stop the cavalry' has just stated playing... what a coincidence

A minor quibble: Cavalry's 3 moves do NOT allow them to retreat from other mobile units. This is a myth. Riders, Cavalry, Cossacks and Modern Armor (the only 3 move land units in the game) will not retreat from 2 move units. The game code simply says that one mobile unit prevents another from retreating.

One of the most vicious wars I ever fought (a long time ago) was as Babylon vs. Japan. The game was on Regent, and my civ was small but strong. Japan was sprawling and had recently squashed China like a bug. Anyway, they had a lot of Samurai and I was building Cav as fast as I could. They attacked me, and what ensued was a bloodbath. I won, totally, but it hurt. If the AI had any concept of how to use the unit properly, it could probably have held me off, at least on one front. There was a mountain range which my Cav crossed virtually unopposed, emerging at the gates of Kyoto. Imagine if they had simply lined it with Samurai. *shudder*

Otherwise I agree with you that Cavalry are the closest thing to a "gamebreaking" unit - provided you unleash a decent number of them pre-nationalism. You can fight Cav vs. Riflemen just fine, but they aren't nearly as devastating as when they are pitted against musketmen or weaker units.

For real amusement, try Sipahi. I cut loose with 50 of them and destroyed a 21-city Egypt (musketmen equipped, most cities above size 6, some on hills) in 7 turns, losing roughly 5-10 Sipahi. 8 attack, 3 move is truly devastating.

-Arrian

	11-12-2002 21:20									#18
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Doh! I forgot about musketmen - that's a defense of 4. Still, 6:4 is a pretty good attack ratio for the cavalry, and they can retreat which makes it better than Swordsmen/Spearmen (3:2).

	11-12-2002 21:36									#19
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Like you I have a story with the Cav in my current game. When Germany invaded, i was completely unprepared, and for about the first time in my Civ III time, got absolutly sloughtered by thier cruisade of Knights. I almost quit the game infact. Luckily tho, i had just struck a trade agreement (found another cont first!) with the other continent civs for over 500gpt!!(Middle ages still), So, my core cities flat out produced (and rushed ) Knights while beelining stright for Military Tradition. As soon as i got Cav and upgraded, i completly wiped the floor with them, removing thier presence from my cities, and burning half thier own . Was as simple as that.

	12-12-2002 00:49									#20
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If you beeline for MT, you might be able to get to it before the AI gets to gunpowder or builds a significant musketman force. With proper upgrade (ideally horsemen -> Cavs with Leo's and lots of gold) you can crush almost anybody. And the 3 move is great because it allows to avoid most the of counterattacks.

--Kon--

	12-12-2002 03:32									#21
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I would say Cavalry.

quote: one of the above. The only "game breaking" unit that I have ever come across, and I say this because they have kicked my butt on more than one occasion, are the Japanese Samurai 4-4-2.

The Japanese are a great civ:

Religious
Militaristic
UU of Samurai

They are deadly.

	12-12-2002 07:29									#22
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Definately modern armor...I took over the Greeks and Egyptians in a single turn...they never had a chance!

	12-12-2002 08:40									#23
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jaguar warrior

	12-12-2002 16:58									#24
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hi ,

to bad the F-15 aint an option , ......

modern armor , all the way !

have a nice day

	12-12-2002 19:52									#25
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It is all relitive. Any unit, as long it is not too old (ie Not Warrior V Rifleman) too far way (Going from India to South Africa by land) or too outnumbered (not 1:20), can really put up a fight if used well by a shrewd commander. Luckily, the AI rarely do. But I do long for a well planned invasion....

	13-12-2002 06:45									#26
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I'm going to have to say knights. I recall a game where I wiped out a 15 city civ in twenty turns using 25 knights and a catapult. I'll build a ton of them in every game.

	13-12-2002 16:02									#27
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quote: Originally posted by King_Henry I'm going to have to say knights. I recall a game where I wiped out a 15 city civ in twenty turns using 25 knights and a catapult. I'll build a ton of them in every game.

do you think the catapult made a big difference?

	13-12-2002 16:10									#28
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The catapult is a unit which is really a waste of building them. If I capture them I save them so I can upgrade them later on. But using them really is no use.....

	13-12-2002 17:47									#29
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I'd go for the knight, because their defenders are normaly spearman or the occasional pikeman, The AI does not upgrade immeditaly so you have got a while before the build up a nice defence after you,ve rushed in your knight-build-forces. The Knigkt is the first fast upgrade which can make that differene, I conquer the other civs (7 on a standard map like this)

Nr1 & nr 2 : horsemen (unless playing rome)
Nr 3: knights
nr 4: knights
nr 5 caverly
nr 6 caverly
nr 7 around caverly/ tanks

	13-12-2002 20:31									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Kampus majore The catapult is a unit which is really a waste of building them. If I capture them I save them so I can upgrade them later on. But using them really is no use.....

i like them in defense. a free shot often reduces the attacker by 1 HP. and the AI likes using regulars --> 50% higher chance of successful defence

but i still don't often build them...