12-12-2002 22:03									#1
	GOD and the black hole Tired of ads?

I watched this program on black holes and discovered something intresting.
The astrophysist said that we can't see a black hole but we know they are there by there influince on the solor system.

I thought that was odd to readly except something that could not be seen.
Like GOD cannot see but know GOD exist by the influince on life.



comments?
and
Please no Star Trek babble

	12-12-2002 22:08									#2
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The influence of the black holes can be measured scientifically.

The influence of God cannot be. --Doesn't mean it doesn't exist; it just means you have to take it on faith.

	12-12-2002 22:09									#3
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opps

	12-12-2002 22:10									#4
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thats a good answer

	12-12-2002 22:12									#5
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What Zkribbler said.

Nothing science has found in any way indicates their is or isn't a God. Personal statements to the effect of "I know God exists because I feel his presence in my life" are meaningless, as people often feel things that aren't real.

Black Holes = science
God = faith

	12-12-2002 22:16									#6
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Well if you have seen some things in your life that can only be devine intrvention then is it more that faith?

	12-12-2002 22:18									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What Zkribbler said. Nothing science has found in any way indicates their is or isn't a God. Personal statements to the effect of "I know God exists because I feel his presence in my life" are meaningless, as people often feel things that aren't real. Black Holes = science God = faith

[Playing Devil's Advocate]If the Big Bang was the start of the universe, what or who started it?[/Playing Devil's Advocate]

	12-12-2002 22:20									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 [Playing Devil's Advocate]If the Big Bang was the start of the universe, what or who started it?[/Playing Devil's Advocate]

Does it matter? You say God, I say random chance. You say To-may-to, I say To-mah-to.

	12-12-2002 22:21									#9
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Imagine, a scientist admitting such a thing.

	12-12-2002 22:21									#10
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Well, according to this, God has a backside, and "moons" Moses:

quote: Exodus 33:20-23 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

So maybe black holes are God's toilets.

	12-12-2002 22:23									#11
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Ah it doesn't matter until you admit such thing.

	12-12-2002 22:23									#12
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Now that is something that also puzzels me.

Just out of nowhere BANG!!!!
The universe as we know it is born.


born or created?

	12-12-2002 22:23									#13
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I say nothing started the universe (causality wise)! Ketchup?

	12-12-2002 22:26									#14
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Imagine, a scientist admitting such a thing.

Dude, I am a scientist. At least a scientist in training. I just don't see a conflict between religion and science.

Well, most religion. Fundy type creationists that ignore scientific evidence bug me.

Let science deal with the how and I'll let religion deal with the why.

	12-12-2002 22:27									#15
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What are the odds of random chance?

so random that life can only be on this planet then?

	12-12-2002 22:30									#16
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How do you know that life is only on this planet?

Now THAT would be unlikely.

	12-12-2002 22:31									#17
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So a scientist CAN except thing that cannot be seen?

	12-12-2002 22:31									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Dude, I am a scientist. At least a scientist in training. I just don't see a conflict between religion and science. Well, most religion. Fundy type creationists that ignore scientific evidence bug me. Let science deal with the how and I'll let religion deal with the why.

Like I said, I was playing devils advocate there.

I feel the same way you do. I mix science and relgion as well. I basicly follow evolution up to monkeys, then God made His hand into a gun and shot the first monkey He saw and gave that monkey free will and the IQ of Forrest Gump and a complete shave. Thus mankind begain.

Wether or not there was an Adam or Eve I do no know. But I do know that if there were such a couple, Adam must be one of the luckest men alive after fathering all those kids.

	12-12-2002 22:32									#19
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Odds are on that there is life elswhere in the same way that odds were on that there is no life, as we are here... so most likely someone else is there created or evolved.

And yes give the religion to answer why, even though it is a opiate of the masses, and give the science to answer how, even though it meets with religion at the end. Therefore science is the opiate of the masses ... or did I miss something

	12-12-2002 22:32									#20
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To except the idea life is on another planet is this faith?

	12-12-2002 22:33									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood Well if you have seen some things in your life that can only be devine intrvention then is it more that faith?

Unless you can scientifically prove such a thing as divine intervention, then it could be anything. It could be a hallucination, for all we know.

Personal testimony does not remotely equal scientific proof. Or any kind of proof. Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Pagans, etc. all make claims to feel their particular image of God or gods is/are correct and that they feel their divine presence. Which do we believe?

quote: [Playing Devil's Advocate]If the Big Bang was the start of the universe, what or who started it?[/Playing Devil's Advocate]

Who the hell knows? But that doesn't prove or even indicate God. Just because we don't know how something occured scientifically doesn't mean it makes sense to default to "God did it." We used to have no idea how magnetism worked and believed it was magic. Now we know better.

"God made the universe" is a scientifically unprovable and untestable statement. Lacking an alternative explanation does not make it any more true.

	12-12-2002 22:34									#22
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Onefoot
Please!!!
I don't watch Star Trek.

	12-12-2002 22:36									#23
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Im missing something.



A scientist can except a MAGICAL bang and not except that it MAY have been created?

	12-12-2002 22:37									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood To except the idea life is on another planet is this faith?

Not at all. It is a good scientific assumption.

There are hundreds of billions of galaxies, each containing hundreds of billions of suns. It is logical to assume that the laws of physics and such are the same throughout the universe, and therefor logical to assume that the same conditions present on Earth will be present elsewhere in the universe. One can reason that such if such conditions produced life on Earth, they could produce life on any planet with the same conditions. Ergo, by the sheer vastness of the universe, it is far more reasonable to conclude their must be life elsewhere, based on the odds.

Now, it may be spaced so far apart as to make any contact with such life impossible, meaning we'll never know for sure. But it's still a scientifically sound assumption that it indeed exists.

	12-12-2002 22:39									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Unless you can scientifically prove such a thing as divine intervention, then it could be anything. It could be a hallucination, for all we know. Personal testimony does not remotely equal scientific proof. Or any kind of proof. Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Pagans, etc. all make claims to feel their particular image of God or gods is/are correct and that they feel their divine presence. Which do we believe? Who the hell knows? But that doesn't prove or even indicate God. Just because we don't know how something occured scientifically doesn't mean it makes sense to default to "God did it." We used to have no idea how magnetism worked and believed it was magic. Now we know better. "God made the universe" is a scientifically unprovable and untestable statement. Lacking an alternative explanation does not make it any more true.

That is the whole idea religion is useless until it happens to you, and even than you do not know whether those before you were wise man or lunatics.

So all in all scientists give you the best shot at what might have actually happened and your own experience gives you the shot at what you should actually believe.

To top it off... whatever you believe it or not doesn't make it any more true for someone else, as you cannot prove it, and the circle should end. But many try to extend it into unextendable, like explaining what they cannot explain.

	12-12-2002 22:40									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Personal testimony does not remotely equal scientific proof. Or any kind of proof. Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Pagans, etc. all make claims to feel their particular image of God or gods is/are correct and that they feel their divine presence. Which do we believe?

Well, there is one way to find out. Start a Holy War, since when a group decalres a Holy War, the loser of the that war follows a false god.

	12-12-2002 22:40									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood Im missing something. A scientist can except a MAGICAL bang and not except that it MAY have been created?

Who said anything about magical? There are plenty of theories as to the origins of the universe that have nothing to do with magic.

Again, just because we don't know how it happened doesn't mean the only alternative is magic.

And how is accepting on sheer faith that some mystical being created the universe any different than believing in magic?

	12-12-2002 22:41									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood Onefoot Please!!! I don't watch Star Trek.

It is not Star Trek,.. it's a comment at religion vs science and who is right.

	12-12-2002 22:42									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood Now that is something that also puzzels me. Just out of nowhere BANG!!!! The universe as we know it is born. born or created?

Yeah, but if you think about it, religion and science (separating the two for a moment) have equally unsatisfactory answers for that one. If you completely discount God, then you're left to ask "what triggered the Big Bang (or whatever theory you subscribe to)?". If you believe God created the universe, then you still have the questions of "what existed before he did this?" and "why did he do it?".

	12-12-2002 22:42									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood So a scientist CAN except thing that cannot be seen?

However, the level of assumption goes through the roof when God is introduced. It's a hugely important distinction to make.