13-12-2002 15:06									#1
	History of the Rise, Glory, Decline and Fall of the Ottoman Empire Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hello there!

I postponed the creation of my "Battle of Guadalcanal" to February (University holidays ) and decided to create a scenario about the Birth, Rise, Glory, Decline and Fall of the once mighty Ottoman Empire.

I will start creation around christmas meanwhile iīm reading books, magazines and some other stuff to gather information about the topics.

The scenario will kick of in the 2nd half of the 13th century when muslim tribes from Turkestan were forced to leave their homes in Central Asia by the invading Mongol Armies and started to walk westwards. In this period the Turks reached the borders of the (East) Roman Empire.

The parts of this scenario pentalogy may be:
> The Birth (1326-1402, from the founderīs death to the Mongol invasion)
> The Rise (1413-1520, from the recovery from the Mongol invasion to Sultan Soliman II the Great)
> The Glory (1520-1568, the regency of Soliman II and the peace of Adrianopolis as the most glorious years of the Ottoman Empire)
> The Decline I (1571-1739, from the Battle of Lepanto to the peace treaty of Belgrade)
> The Decline II (1788-1856, from Sultan Selim III to the Crimea War)
> The Decline III (1856-1908, from the Crimea War to the Turkish Revolution)
>The Fall (1908-1918, from the Turkish Revolution to the end of World War I)

Any ideas, suggestions, questions etc. are highly welcome and recommended. Within the next weeks i will update any information about this epic scenario pentalogy.

	13-12-2002 15:27									#2
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A "pentalogy" in 7 parts? Now that is something new!

Otherwise, seems like a huge amount of work, good luck with it!

BTW: congratulations for the Euro 2008 that we will be organizing together!!

	13-12-2002 16:06									#3
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Cyrion, you never heard of the five book trilogy "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"?

	13-12-2002 16:24									#4
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ok folks, jokeīs over now. you have to imagine the decline in three parts (or books, if you like )

any ideas or whatsoever?


by the way, yeah, letīs be looking forward to the 2008 European Championships!

	13-12-2002 17:12									#5
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Ottomans, huh? Montecuccoli and prince Eugene, eh ehe ehehehe...

Anyway, take a look here...

http://jagor.srce.hr/husar/

	13-12-2002 20:12									#6
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Brilliant, Jim, brilliant!
I've been waiting for this for some time.
BTW, Montecuccoli's great victory at Monoster(Szentgotthard) was achieved using elite troops from the federal state of Kranjska(Krain), which is exactly where I live
Also, my ancestors were able ti drub the Turks at Ljubljana(1683), and more importantly, Sisak(1693), where half of the Bosnian nobles perished.
So, if you have any questions...

	13-12-2002 21:05									#7
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What's up with your scenario about the japanese invasion of the phillipines?

	14-12-2002 06:54									#8
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Why are you ending your "pentalogy" with WWI?
Why don't you end it in 1922 and the creation of the modern Turkish state?.

After WWI the terms of the peace treaty seemed a huge burden for the Turks who rebelled against both the Ottoman goverment in Constantinople, and the Allied powers. The only available army in the region to implement the peace treaty was the Hellenic army. It was the world's finest at the time, hardened by 10 years of continiuous fighting, and lured by Allied promises took up the task. After a titanic three year war the Greek advance was halted by a stout defence of the Turks near Saggarios River, less than 100 Km from Ankara. Although a tactical victory for the Greeks, Saggarios river proved a strategical failure for the Hellenic army which had depleted its manpower.

The Turks under Kemal launched a counteroffensive the next year and captured Smyrna which they burned to the ground, putting an end to 3000 years of history of the Ionian Greeks.

The Greek army already disorganised by political turmoil in mainland Greece failed to protect the orthodox populace from Turkish atrocities and its retreat turned quickly into a rout. More than 25.000 Greeks soldiers perished in Asia Minor(among them my great granfather )

Kemal then proceeded to modernize Turkey and transform it into a secular state. He introduced Latin alphabet and forced the european dress upon the Turks thus putting Turkey into the "Western World".

	14-12-2002 13:44									#9
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Iīm sorry about your grandfather.

I thought on the things you mentioned before i started the thread. I also know about Venizelosī war against Kemal Ataturk in Minor Asia. I also know that the Sultan retreated officially 1922, declaring the Caliphate* has ended.

I also thought about how i may show th circumstances after WW1. Turkey was divided in different zones between the European Mights (Italy, Greece, France and, of course, GB). I think it will be not really possible to conquer these huge parts of Turkey in one single turn without Paratroopers, Tanks etc. It will need an own part.

Letīs try a consensus :
I will add another part, expanding this pentalogy into a Heptalogy. This 6th part will be called "The End" (itīs a rather bad name, i know) or something like "Out of the End into the Future", i actually donīt know.
It will cover the years from 1918-1922, from the End of WW1 to the constitution of the modern, secular State of Turkey.

I also got some details for Valuk: I guess you are quite proud of some parts of our common history.
It is interesting because a few years earlier the Habsburg Monarchy got not the best (ho, euphemism )
notes by the follower states of the former monarchy. iīm not a monarchist but i think we canīt change our history and therefore we should not forget it.

	15-12-2002 00:11									#10
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Sorry for your grandfather, Palaiologos...

You are not the only one...

One of my ancestors fought at Lepanto, enroled in Spanish regiment Tercio de Cerdeņa, the Don Juan arquebusiers.

	15-12-2002 01:48									#11
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No need to feel sorry for him.

He died as a man, in service of his country.

He was my great grandfather's brother actually. My great grandfather (Johanes) survived the war.

How do you know of your relative in Lepanto, Prometeus, that was 450 years ago!

	15-12-2002 10:44									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos How do you know of your relative in Lepanto, Prometeus, that was 450 years ago!

The Tercio's service list, as well as all of the standards, was stored in Cagliari's cathedral archives. An acquired uncle of mine, a lawyer, did some research a few years ago about our family genealogy tree.

	15-12-2002 11:49									#13
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I'm curious.

How would you handle the rise and decline of the Jannisaries, and how would you implement the Timar system that was the mainstay of the Empire.

Also,

The Turkish Sultan Bayazid I lost his fight against Timur in part because of his growing tendency towards Autocratic statism in the Byzantine style, which put him at odds with the traditionally tribal Turkish elites. Apparently in the battle a large contigent of his forces abandoned him.

Since the first chapter ends with the Timurid invasion, have the next begin with the Battle of Ankara, and the full-scale invasion, and the job of the player is to rebuild the empire?

Last edited by Swampthing on 15-12-2002 at 16:22

	16-12-2002 02:47									#14
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* The rise and the decline of the Janissaries will be a tough nut, i know. iīm thinking about multiple unit graphics combined with the technology tree (one tech learned/acquired, the Janissaries units shall vanquish [actually i donīt know how to handle this exact but iīm quite creative ])

iīm gathering information all around but the next week iīm quite busy due to my studies at university. iīm doing what i can.

* The Timar System is really a much harder nut than the Janissaries are. I think i will handle this together with the Kul-Devshirme System. First i thought to manage these things with a Hot Seat scenario but that is not satisfying. You know why
Anyway, i have no evident idea right now about the Timar System. one solution could be to implement this basic socio-economic system into the city improvements and/or wonders. (that is, too, not satisfying ) if you know a better solution iīd like to know it .....

*The last thing mentioned was the question if you may have to fight back a large-scaled invasion and rebuild the realm later or not. iīm planning to include both but in a way that doing both at the same time is impossible. first you should only to be able to expand your military and after having defeated the invaders you are able to rebuild your realm.


and now for something completely different (Monty Python rules )

after considerations (thanx to palaiologos ) i decided to add another part to the ottoman history: the way from 1918 to the constitution of the modern turkish state.
the parts will be (December 15, 2002):
I - The Birth
II - The Rise
III The Glory
IV - The Decline (in 3, maybe 4 parts)
V - The Fall (maybe in 2 parts: pre-WW1 and WW1)
VI - The Humiliation

now itīs a heptalogy

	19-12-2002 08:28									#15
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quote: now itīs a heptalogy

Not quite yet, you need one more (7).

	19-12-2002 09:49									#16
	Janissary marching tune Support Apolyton

To compensate, I zipped this turkish anthem, which could be used as an opening theme. You can convert it to wav using ashampoo or sth.

Attachment: turkish military music.zip
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	25-12-2002 06:17									#18
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I'm looking forward to it, but it's an ambitious undertaking, and such undertakings usually fall in the end.
I'll be happy to see even one part of it.
Soon I'll have a computer. I don't know if I'll have time to make scns, but my scns, as about Byzantium probably,
will need a turkish city style, and today I have bigger opportunities to gain a good material for making it. When it comes to city styles, and I think I make pretty nice ones recently , You can count on my help.

	26-12-2002 18:09									#19
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merry christmas.

by the way as promised iīm working on this little scenario. currently iīm a bit late because of this d*** map design.
i will post it later this day when i finished map drawing.

some included features: mainly focused on minor asia this map covers also south-eastern europe, (tiny) parts of the north-african shore and mesopotamia.

till later .....

	26-12-2002 19:49									#20
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look what iīve got here

itīs a first try of my map/terrain design i will use. (some explanations: the weird area between the hills should be some kind of highland )

shall i leave the mountains as they are or shall i replace īem?

Attachment: screenshot1.jpg
This has been downloaded 104 time(s).

	26-12-2002 19:56									#21
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Quite a good map. Will you be doing this in FW/MGE or will we mortals be let down once more?!

	26-12-2002 21:46									#22
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you mean something for classic civ2?

	26-12-2002 23:35									#23
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I think he means ToT.

Are you sure it was that hard for the Ottomans to transfer troops from Europe to Asia?

	27-12-2002 02:15									#24
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iīm sorry to disappoint you, valuk. i have only mpg. this will only be playable on fw/mpg.

i guess i will make troop movements for these who control constantinopolis/istanbul (which is indeed a medieval greek form, slightly "turkified", if you want) easier by making the bosporus thinner

what do you think?
what about the mountains?

	27-12-2002 19:08									#25
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MGE is fine with me.
This scenario has potential...

	28-12-2002 00:22									#26
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MGE scenarios cannot be played in FW. However, FW scenarios can be played in MGE.

FW scenarios cannot be played in CiC/2.42. However, CiC/2.42 scenarios can be played in FW.

	28-12-2002 00:34									#27
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Instabul comes from the Greek " Is tin polin", which means "to the City".


For the unenlightened.

	28-12-2002 15:38									#28
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i guess you donīt meant me with "undelightened". but thanks

	04-01-2003 04:56									#29
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I don't like the map.
I'm cruel, I know, but it gives You a chance to correct it.

	04-01-2003 11:15									#30
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Umm...Maybe some constructive criticisim, Heresson the Cruel . Is it the appearance, the scale, the distribution of terrain, or something else? My first gut reaction is that there may be too much 'nice' terrain - I think Macedonia-to-Anatolia is pretty rugged (but then I've been reading about the Salonika debacle in WWI, lately). Then again, maybe other parts of @UNITS and @TERRAIN already reflect this.