15-12-2002 19:56									#31
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We probably should have remade Japanese society while we were at it. They're still horribly racist. At least they aren't militarists anymore (for the most part--fascism is still trendy there).

It's a wierd racism though. They seem to value Caucasian physiognomic traits above their own.

Can you name a society that isn't racist? They're still not letting the Turks into the EU are they? Well, at least they have their reasons.

Maybe what we need is a world Atonement Day. Let each nation remember those it screwed over.

	15-12-2002 21:28									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: The world has changed. Racism is still rampant, but modern nations are far too dependent on each other, while weapons have become too lethal. Superpowers no longer feel the urge to attack each other You could've said the exact same thing before WWI. I appreciate your optimism, but I don't know if I share it.

Yes, definitely, we could have said the same thing before WW1.

But countries don't wage war unless they're reasonably confident that they can win without attrition and with something to gain afterwards. (In other words, maximum returns with minimum cost.) Nukes make both of those impossible. This is precisely why India and Pakistan backed off very recently, why China still hasn't invaded US-backed Taiwan, and so on.

Besides, look at Europe today. Would France or Germany even bother to attack each other anymore? They're so economically tied that it's simply more profitable to trade than to fight. In 50 years, the same can very well be said about all superpowers - China, Russia, India, NATO. In that case, wars would be quick, localized affairs - Gulf Wars and Kosovo Wars. There would be no WW3.

(On the other hand.... I'm not factoring in the possibility of a madman. Some leaders don't listen to cooler-headed advisers...)

	15-12-2002 21:36									#33
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Urban Ranger - thank-you for the post - excellent discussion thread - very thought provoking.

sigh .....

	15-12-2002 21:41									#34
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Lest we forget.


A reenactment of an experiment done by the IJA:

	15-12-2002 22:21									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove It's a wierd racism though. They seem to value Caucasian physiognomic traits above their own.

A friend of mine spent a year in Japan as an English teacher. He is 6'5", half-white and half-lebanese, so he really stood out there. He tried to date Japanese, but they regarded him as a freak. One Japanese friend explained that for many, dating a non-Japanese person is seen as a fetish, almost like bestiality. He eventually found a white guy to date.

quote: Can you name a society that isn't racist? They're still not letting the Turks into the EU are they? Well, at least they have their reasons.

While I wouldn't say there isn't racism in the EU, this isn't a good example. Turkey is not being excluded, as Europe will revist their application in 2004, and the reasons are not racial, but economic and political. Until Turkey makes some changes to their government, human rights and economic policies (like all EU countries had to), they can't be in the club.

Sure, there are probably Europeans who don't want them just because their Turks, but that's not an official reason.

quote: Maybe what we need is a world Atonement Day. Let each nation remember those it screwed over.

National Brotherhood Week?

	15-12-2002 22:38									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov A friend of mine spent a year in Japan as an English teacher. He is 6'5", half-white and half-lebanese, so he really stood out there. He tried to date Japanese, but they regarded him as a freak. One Japanese friend explained that for many, dating a non-Japanese person is seen as a fetish, almost like bestiality. He eventually found a white guy to date. National Brotherhood Week?

Then why are all their anime characters white? I don't think it would be possible to put out a cartoon character in Japan who looked Oriental. It simply wouldn't sell.

Your friend was gay? Was he absolutely certain that the people he approached were gay also? Then again, if he looks Lebanese that might be a problem. The Japanese seem to very much admire light skin tones, light hair, and blue eyes. They might have a problem with a swarthy complected, hairy middle eastern type.

Nope. World Atonement Day. A day for each nation to remember ethnic groups and etc. who were the recipeints of their persecution in the past (or present). I'm certain that almost every nationality has some group that they tortured at one time or another.

	15-12-2002 23:29									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Can you name a society that isn't racist? They're still not letting the Turks into the EU are they? Well, at least they have their reasons.

What the hell has this to do with racism? Is there a right to be in the EU I´m not aware of? Or has anyone said that Turks can´t be EU members because of their race?

	16-12-2002 03:32									#38
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quote: A friend of mine spent a year in Japan as an English teacher. He is 6'5", half-white and half-lebanese, so he really stood out there. He tried to date Japanese, but they regarded him as a freak. One Japanese friend explained that for many, dating a non-Japanese person is seen as a fetish, almost like bestiality. He eventually found a white guy to date.

Maybe this is because he is gay. I've heard the exact opposite from hetero males who have lived in Japan. Japanese women treat Caucasian men as a status symbol and pursue them doggedly.

BTW, did your friend teach in Japan on the JET program? I've applied for next year's JET and I'm really looking forward to it. And not just for the attention of Japanese women.

	16-12-2002 08:09									#39
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*big sigh*

The Nanjing (Nanking, to some) was a horrible massacre that shouldn't have happened. Innocent lives were lost because of the atrocities that Japanese military men committed.

However, I should point out to you all that Japan, Germany, nor the Soviet Union are the only ones guilty of despicable acts like these.

For instance, the United States of America passed out blankets contaminated with smallpox by the hundreds (if not thousands) to Native American Indians. Not many people are doing anything about this now, AFAIK.

No one seems to be complaining about the genocidal war in Africa (i.e. Congo, Angola, Rwanda & Burundi, etc.) Millions of people there have been butchered as well but I haven't seen much press about these. Just because these atrocities are in Africa, should one simply ignore them?

On article I read (Time, Newsweek, or NY Times Magazine...cannot remember) covered a war for coltan in one of the African countries. Coltan is used by our cell-phone BTW. Anyway, literally hundreds of thousands are working in deplorable conditions just so we can have an extra feature on our cellphone.....but it seems no one is paying much attention to them.

Now, I'm not justifying the Nanjing massacre, heck I'm half-japanese and I find it rather sick and disgusting. But neither am I glad America (my nationality) dropped the A-Bombs on two populated cities. I don't think Japan deserved the A-Bombs as much as the people of Nanjing deserved to be brutally murdered.

Basically what I'm saying is that pretty much EVERY country in this world has done something despicable to get to where it is today......The U.S. included.

(sorry for the rambling post, just had to get my 2-cents in)

	16-12-2002 08:31									#40
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Franky, this is a thread commemorating Nanjing. Doing that doesn't say nobody else has committed atrocities. We've also had threads commemorating the bad things done by the allies. This isn't the place for a "who did the worst" pissing contest.

	16-12-2002 08:47									#41
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Sorry Boris,

I read all the other posts discussing the a-bombs and what not and I got pissed off. There were some posts that I found rather offensive, but I won't rename them.

But you miss underlying point that I am also honoring those that lost their lives in the Massacre, but would like to point out that those posters who WERE bashing other countries should keep in mind that their country is not as innocent as they think.

........and my intention was not to make a "who did the worst" stuff here, sorry if you got the wrong intentions.

	16-12-2002 09:27									#42
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Frankychan,

It is true that a lot of nations have committed atrocities, but even so the IJA stood out like a sore thumb with a brutality that scared even the Nazis. The killing spees - matches between officers see who could kill the most, the testing of biological weapons on POW's, death matches, and the "comfort women" all point to a very deep and terrible pyschological problem. Namely that they didn't think the people in the occupied territories (and POW's) as humans.

The other very troubling aspect is the inability of Japan as a nation to come to terms of this. They mourn their own deaths of atomic bombings, but they completely neglect their victims. Not even Japan tries to neglect its own atrocities but it even tries to whitewash them. They keep revising the high school history textbooks and even deny the Nanjing Massacre.

Combine this with their strange brand of racism - worshipping Westerners while looking down upon other Asians - make all the neighbouring countries worry.

	16-12-2002 09:41									#43
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And now the thread has degraded into the typical Asian hate fest. I was hoping it could stay civil and on-topic, but I should have known better.

	16-12-2002 09:46									#44
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quote: Combine this with their strange brand of racism - worshipping Westerners while looking down upon other Asians - make all the neighbouring countries worry.

Is it because we won? Is that it?

	16-12-2002 10:02									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov This isn't the place for a "who did the worst" pissing contest.

Oh, but I love contests.

Me first.

My great, great, great great gandad was a slaveowning Quaker elder in Virginia in the 1830s. In that year the Quaker church finally demanded that its membership give up their slaveowning ways, with no exceptions. Good ol' great, great, great, great grandpa answered this summons by renouncing the Quaker church, then put his back to his congreagation by packing up his family and slaves and moving to Tennessee to take possession of a farm just vacated by a deported Cherokee family. Legend has it that the fireplaces were still warm. Another legend has it that the former owner avoided deportation by accepting a position as foremen on his own (former) farm. Great great great great grandad, recognizing a terrific package deal, agreed without hesitation. Spirit like that made this country great or what?!

	16-12-2002 10:16									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan *big sigh* No one seems to be complaining about the genocidal war in Africa (i.e. Congo, Angola, Rwanda & Burundi, etc.) Millions of people there have been butchered as well but I haven't seen much press about these. Just because these atrocities are in Africa, should one simply ignore them?

Think about what you are saying. Clinton is the first and only US President to visit Africa while in office. When is the last time a US Pres. visited S. America?

They go to Europe, China, Japan, S. Korea.

Has a US Pres. ever been to Aust., N. Z?

The Nazi killing were bad, however the way the Japanese kill, I think were far worse.

	16-12-2002 10:19									#47
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The IJA killing was barbaric, but the Nazi killing frightens me more because it was so calculated and systematic. The fact they kept such detailed documentation of the holocaust is really chilling. I guess I think organized, efficient slaughter is just more terrfiying than rampaging.

	16-12-2002 10:25									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The IJA killing was barbaric, but the Nazi killing frightens me more because it was so calculated and systematic. The fact they kept such detailed documentation of the holocaust is really chilling. I guess I think organized, efficient slaughter is just more terrfiying than rampaging.

I completely agree, Boris. The Japanese atrocities, while barbaric, weren't really that different from atrocities commited by rampaging armies throughout history. The Holocaust, however, was a wholly new phenomenon. The cold and mechanical way in which the Nazis went about their murder was absolutely inhuman.

	16-12-2002 12:45									#49
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Urban,

You've just covered something that I didn't think about. Yeah, it's true that Japan hasn't, to my knowledge, admit to their military's atrocities in WWII. I would be extremely shocked if they did have the Nanjing massacre in their school's textbooks.

But it seems like people here think I'm supporting Japan's deplorable behavior....I'm not. I think my ancestor's who didn't stand up to these murderers are cowards. I don't think there's any honor in butchering whole villages "for sport". Neither do I think using people from Uchinanchu (Okinawa) as human shields is anywhere near justifiable.

What I was trying to accomplish was to have those other posters here who were making rather inappropriate comments realize that 1)Nanjing was disgusting and horrific and 2)THEIR own country (the posters in question) is probably just as guilty in some form of barbarism as well.


Joseph-I see your point. Although Clinton's visit to Africa was a step in the right direction, I personally believe our current administration has to step up the American people's information on everything that's happening there. Unfortunately, the US has its hands dirty in politics in Africa, which I don't think our administration wants to have the general public known (think P. Lumumba)

Boris and Drake- I also agree that BOTH Japan and Germany were sadists in how they carried out the plethora of atrocities. Although it seems that Japanese actions were barbaric and disorganized, I think in some area's it was localized. I've read that they rounded up prisoners for experiments just like the Nazi scientists did.

Japan wanted to be the leader of Asia with the other countries existing as second-class citizens whereas Germany wanted to just exterminate everyone and have a German-only society. (IMHO, of course)

Still though, the lot of 'em are a bunch of sadists.

	16-12-2002 13:03									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Nanjing is not the only city that the Japanese work over. They hit a few other just as bad. You guys should read the Ghost Company/Pattoon/something, can't remember the correct title, but Ghost is part of the title. It is the story of our POW from Bataan and their treatment under the Japanese. One of our guys was killed for drinking water on the road to c. camp. This Japanese soldier took his sword and parted the man head to his shoulder area right down the middle of his head.

Joe, The original report from the POW's themselves is fascinating reading. One can find the report online at the Roosevelt library site.

The brutality of the Japanese against American POWs was indescribable. I wonder why there are not more movies about it.

For that matter, a movie about Nanking would be very hard to watch, but it should be made. The story could center on that one Nazi doctor that did his best to save as many as he could. I believe he saved 300,000 Chinese. Another Shindler.

	16-12-2002 13:05									#51
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A Nazi doctor? IIRC, there were some people from the International Red Cross who set up a 'safe zone' in the middle of the city. Almost everyone who failed to reach it, died.

	16-12-2002 13:17									#52
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Rabe was a businessman, not a doctor.

	16-12-2002 13:22									#53
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quote: A Nazi doctor? IIRC, there were some people from the International Red Cross who set up a 'safe zone' in the middle of the city. Almost everyone who failed to reach it, died.

A Nazi businessman was the chief person who organized the safe zone.

	16-12-2002 13:47									#54
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Oh, I see.

	16-12-2002 13:52									#55
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The sad thing is they will never make movies about American POW's in the philappines nor Nanking. It just wouldn't be PC to do so.

	16-12-2002 13:55									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph The Nazi killing were bad, however the way the Japanese kill, I think were far worse.

How can you say that?

The way I see it, if you're killing innocent people, then you're killing innocent people, and that's pretty much all there is to it. I mean, there really is no "better" or "worse" way to go about doing it. It's just wrong no matter what, where, when and how.

Hence, by my reckoning, the people who dropped the firebombs on the city of Dresden were in effect no better than those who put people on the trains to Auschwitz.

How is burning people in their homes "better" than sending them off to a camp and burning them there?

How is the indiscrimimate slaughter of an entire city "better" than sorting out certain groups and sending them off to "special treatment"?

I hear people say the nazi killings were worse because they were so cold, calculated and organized, but weren't the allied air operations calculated and organized as well?

Certainly something to think about, isn't it?

	16-12-2002 14:01									#57
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The Japanese was less pre-meditated imho. It was more of a mob menatlity by the military. Peer pressure played a big role. But in germany you have soldiers by themselves or with only a few others around committing unspeakable acts of evil. They weren't influenced as much by peer pressure or mob mentality.

	16-12-2002 16:56									#58
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I am shocked at how you guys compare what's better and what's worse on such evil atrocities! Ask the victims on what is better or worse!

So long...

Last edited by The Pioneer on 16-12-2002 at 18:47

	16-12-2002 19:24									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The IJA killing was barbaric, but the Nazi killing frightens me more because it was so calculated and systematic. The fact they kept such detailed documentation of the holocaust is really chilling. I guess I think organized, efficient slaughter is just more terrfiying than rampaging.

On the contrary, the images of disorganized, chaotic, and perverse mass death mingled with mass rape and mutilation are infinitely more horrifying to me than systematic extermination. I guess it's just a gut feeling either way.

	16-12-2002 19:59									#60
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One could argue that the Nanjing massacre had the blessing of the Japanese hierarchy, all the way to the emporer, and therefore if not systematic, was at least sanctioned.

What the Japanese did however used to be quite common. Even those civilized British were cpable of ravaging cities they captured in Spain during the Napoleonic wars. Shockingly these cities were populated by citizens of their Spanish allies! Lord Wellington actually ordered his officers to permit it because he thought that the troops deserved the recreation! Similar incidents were repeated in India during the relief of the Sepoy Mutiny and in China during the relief of the Boxer rebellion. I won't go into the activities of French, German, American, Russian and et. forces in this same time period.