13-12-2002 16:01									#1
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So far, the PBEM's I've gotten involved in have been entirely human affairs. I'd like to start one involving a mixture of 4 humans and 4 AI's to see what it's like, and I figured I'd see if there's interest here before posting to the general PBEM area. (I'm planning to move the game there eventually to avoid cluttering up the GS area more.) I'd like it to be a standard map, maximum land, continents game, on Monarch level. If possible, I'd like to use careful selection of AIs coupled with culturally linked starting positions to get two humans and two AIs on each side of the map. (Even better would be if someone would volunteer to set up a map for us, ensuring comparable land masses and reasonably comparable starting positions, assuming scenarios work properly in PBEM.)

Two special rules:

(1) Human players are not permitted to sign alliances with AIs against other human players unless MPPs have already caused AIs to get involved in the war. Such alliances would be highly unbalancing in the early game, but the exception allows a player without Nationalism to use alliances to counteract de facto allies brought in through MPPs.

(2) In no case may a civ ally and/or hold MPPs with both of the two strongest AI civs (as indicated by the power graph) simultaneously, or with more than two AI civs simultaneously. This is also intended to avoid having one human use AIs to gang up on another.

Nathan

	13-12-2002 16:35									#2
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Since I'm about to lose my PBEM game against Conqueror some time soon ... I'm in on this one.

	13-12-2002 17:02									#3
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I'd like to join too, to have another role than the GoW in the Euro PBEM. The rules seem ok, even if I normally love playing the alliances game.

Two remarks:
1) I wouldn't move it into the PBEM forum, but if possible keep it to ourselves. We only need 1 thread to discuss it, and everything we learn from it can benefit us.
2) I suggest one of the first things to do is finding a name for this game, there are quite a few of them going on already. It becomes hard to reference all of them...

DeepO

	13-12-2002 17:17									#4
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I'd like to join too, to have another role than the GoW in the Euro PBEM. The rules seem ok, even if I normally love playing the alliances game. Two remarks: 1) I wouldn't move it into the PBEM forum, but if possible keep it to ourselves. We only need 1 thread to discuss it, and everything we learn from it can benefit us. 2) I suggest one of the first things to do is finding a name for this game, there are quite a few of them going on already. It becomes hard to reference all of them...

I already have a tentative name picked out: "Four and Four" (perhaps using 4/4 as shorthand). I have no problem with leaving it here if that's okay with everyone.

In regard to playing the alliances game, you can still ally with humans against humans or AIs, or with AIs against AIs. You can decide whether to engage in a research partnership with the other human on your continent, try to vassalize him, or take him out completely. It's only the "bribe all the AIs to gang up with me against a human" strategy that I'm trying to close off. (Imagine playing against Carthage and having them take advantage of their Commercial trait to get writing in 40 turns and then bribe two AIs to help triple-team you and you should see my reasoning.)

Nathan

	13-12-2002 17:25									#5
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Four and Four

As to alliances: I agree on keeping it out, but why do you think I like it? I'm normally the one who is coming with a few allies onto someone else (SP, of course, I still have to finish my first MP game)

DeepO

	13-12-2002 17:45									#6
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Four and Four As to alliances: I agree on keeping it out, but why do you think I like it? I'm normally the one who is coming with a few allies onto someone else (SP, of course, I still have to finish my first MP game)

I never said I thought you'd like it, just that I thought you'd see my reasoning. And do you seriously think I'm not usually the one who enlists allies to gang up on enemies in SP? But MP is a whole different game, because every dirty trick we pull on the AI's in SP, another human just might take a notion to pull on us.

Nathan

	13-12-2002 17:54									#7
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So... signing alliances against another AI is still perfectly allowed, no?

DeepO

	13-12-2002 18:06									#8
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If I'm understanding Nathan right, the only kind of alliance not allowed is:
Human/AI .vs. Human
(except if an MPP forces such an alliance).

	13-12-2002 18:13									#9
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet If I'm understanding Nathan right, the only kind of alliance not allowed is: Human/AI .vs. Human (except if an MPP forces such an alliance).

Correct.

	13-12-2002 18:53									#10
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As for maps, why not see if there's one in the scenario folder that fits.
There are more or less symmetrical maps in there

	13-12-2002 19:22									#11
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quote: Originally posted by alva848 As for maps, why not see if there's one in the scenario folder that fits. There are more or less symmetrical maps in there

I poked around in the scenarios some a few days ago, and I don't remember anything offhand that I'd especially like for four humans and four AIs (not that there couldn't be something I'm forgetting). If someone else can think of a suitable scenario, I'm open to suggestions.

Although I'm not quite sure I want things too symmetrical. It's more competitive when one player doesn't get a whole lot better starting position than another, but there's something to be said for having to go out and explore the world rather than knowing from the scenario what it's like. Thoughts, anyone?

Nathan

	13-12-2002 19:23									#12
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So far, we have FrustratedPoet, DeepO, and myself as players. Anyone interested in being our fourth?

Nathan

	13-12-2002 20:15									#13
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Two of my PBEM games have crashed and burned, so sign me up here if you haven't found your fourth (...sounds like Bridge).


Dominae

	13-12-2002 21:39									#14
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Do you still want someone to set up a map? I could probably handle that...

Generate a map, set the starting locations, save as scenario, right?

-Arrian

	13-12-2002 22:36									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Two of my PBEM games have crashed and burned, so sign me up here if you haven't found your fourth (...sounds like Bridge).

Or Spades, which I played a lot of in college. Welcome.

	13-12-2002 22:46									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Do you still want someone to set up a map? I could probably handle that... Generate a map, set the starting locations, save as scenario, right?

\

Thanks. What we want (unless someone says differently) is standard map, continents, 70% water, average temperature and humidity, 4 billion age, and random barbarians. Lock players 1-4 into fairly comparable starting positions (editing the map a little if necessary), two on each continent (and make sure it really is two big continents) but use coin tosses or die rolls or some such to make it random who goes where so the players won't know. Also, if you can find a control to lock the game into Monarch level in the scenario itself, that might be worth a try to see if we can avoid the risk of the starting level bug striking agian. Thanks again for the offer!

Nathan

	13-12-2002 22:52									#17
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I will see what I can do. What about starting locations for players 4-8? Shall I set the AI starts too?

Obviously I can't do this until later tonight, but I'll get on it. Tell you what: I will do this if you test "the plan"

-Arrian

	13-12-2002 22:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I will see what I can do. What about starting locations for players 4-8? Shall I set the AI starts too? Obviously I can't do this until later tonight, but I'll get on it. Tell you what: I will do this if you test "the plan"

I keep forgetting the test when I'm not too busy and being too busy when I'm not forgetting, don't I? Deal.

The game should assign eight starting positions when it creates the map, so the four starting positions you don't assign to players 1-4 (and maybe move in the process if you see fit) will fall into place as the AIs. But if you see a need to move one or more of them, you're welcome to; that may be necessary if moving a player starting position would put someone too close to an AI. No need to assign them by player number, since AIs are so much more interchangeable than us humans .

Nathan

	14-12-2002 04:52									#19
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Ok, firing up the editor now...

-Arrian

	14-12-2002 05:25									#20
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Map sent to Nathan. Hopefully it's done right. Have fun.

-Arrian

	14-12-2002 07:09									#21
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Thanks Arrian

Do we have an order already? Otherwise, I'd suggest we follow the time thing: Nathan, Dominae, FP and myself (no need to end with me, though, just keep the order )

Or did I misinterpret your timezones, and should Dominae be after Nathan?

DeepO

	14-12-2002 07:22									#22
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Uum, do we get to pick our civ?


Dominae

	14-12-2002 07:30									#23
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Oh... right.. forgot about that as well.It really isn't such a good idea to log on after a Christmass dinner

put me down for either Egypt, Ottomans, Persia or Arabs, in that order (the rest can choose, I'll pick one of my list that remains)

DeepO

	14-12-2002 07:37									#24
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Here are my top three (in order):

1. Aztecs
2. Babylonians
3. Carthiginians


Dominae

	14-12-2002 12:51									#25
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For the order, we'll go with me, then DeepO, then FP, and then Dominae. (Montreal is an hour ahead of me, so a wrap-around with Dominae going before me fits the time zones scheme better.)

My civ preferences in order are Egypt, Persia, and the Ottomans. I guess once FP states a civ preference, we'll be in a position to start unless I'm forgetting something.

Nathan

	14-12-2002 14:31									#26
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I'll be America.

	14-12-2002 15:11									#27
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We have a problem. I loaded the scenario Arrian created for us into multiplayer PBEM, but the difficulty level comes up "custom" and I can't change it. Has anyone heard anything about setting difficulty levels when loading scenarios for MP play?

	14-12-2002 15:26									#28
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Did Arrian change the difficulty level from inside the editor when he made the scenario?

	14-12-2002 15:27									#29
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Sorry guys.

Something has come up and I need to be away from home (and therefore my 'net access) until Tuesday or Wednesday next week. It's unavoidable I'm afraid.

Sorry to hold up the game.

If anyone else from GS would like to play my turns until I come back then they are very welcome to do so.

	14-12-2002 15:34									#30
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Did Arrian change the difficulty level from inside the editor when he made the scenario?

Arrian certainly didn't set it deliberately. Neither Arrian nor I knows a way to change the overall difficulty level of a game from the editor; if anyone else does, please let us know.

Nathan