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Dominae
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Edit: Doh! I forgot we were researching The Wheel first! In this case, why should we not accept the offer? Their techs are a lot more useful to us than ours to them...
Dominae
Last edited by Dominae on 25-12-2002 at 02:21
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Dominae
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A thought just occurred to me. Perhaps we should extend this sort of deal to all the other civs. Thus, upon meeting our nearest neighbor, we could possibly get up to 2 techs for "free". Our 2 techs are non-militaristic, which means our neighbor cannot turn the trade against us. I think this would show that we're interested in diplomatic relations, as well as a relatively peaceful early-game. Also, it prevents having to haggle over specific techs, which gets us up the tree quite a bit faster.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
To make the deal now, and keep it would mean that they have already made up their minds what to do when contact is made, no matter who they contact. Either live in peace, or rush.
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I don't think the offer commits them to any diplomatic agenda. If they see that we are weak, they'll take the 2 techs and attack us soon after; if they perceive that we are strong, they'll take the 2 techs and wait. The only thing that I don't understand is that their 2 techs are the militaristic ones, meaning that they'll have a tougher time defeating anyone they make this deal with. Perhaps they don't really care and want to get up the tech tree ASAP. Or, maybe they're not interested in extortion and want to get all their techs "clean". In any case, our relations with them remain the same.
Dominae
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Dominae
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Nice thinking alva! However, if this is their strategy, they're not considering that most teams will want Bronze Working ASAP, for defensive purposes, and therefore will probably be researching it from turn 1. This means that most teams will be refusing their offer (or making another one on better terms...).
Dominae
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:24
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It seems GoW is making quite an effort in their early diplomacy- First Panzer32's proposal for minimap swaps then this.
Well, this makes perfect sense, an outgoing policy suits the mercenary aspect of the team, and isloationist policy deters potential customers.
I'd think that one of their goal here would be to make contacts- having potential customers, which i think will be their first military goal, before attacking somone for themselves.
Think about it: early wars are VERY dangerous, you can lose everything, and win alot. That is an unnecesary risk if the GoW plans on biting little chunks of their employer's lands, and get the spoils of war, besides the obvious pay.
Some of you are fixed on the "GoW will attack whatever it sees first" idea, but if you try to think like a mercenary, which is a businessman, after all, their foremost interest will be to advertise themselves as a group with a potential common interest for the other teams.
What better to do it than trade, and trade early techs? even if they trade military for non military, it still means they make good impression, trust, etc. and thus expand their client base. These are not less important than tech trees planning and the like, so please bear this as well.
As for the deal, i don't think we want to make any obligations like this- who knows what might happen? The most logical thing to do is to tell them we would positivly consider tech trade when we meet, but making premature obligations is unnecessary.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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I still don't like that deal. I'm not sure the GoW thinks that other teams won't research BW (maybe only the legos won't, if they beeline for literature), but I think the hope to gain 2 techs for 1 here: everybody is going to research BW, while they are almost certainly researching ironworking first, the wheel next. Indeed, early wars are risky, but if your swordsmen face only a few spears, the risk is minimal. I don't think thay are going to outright destroy the first one they meet, but it is very likely they at least take 1 city fast... mercenaries are only useful when most of the teams have met, before that they also need to gain power. They will attack early on, if no-one hires them first.
DeepO
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
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Sorry about not checking in for a while, but one of my brother's computers had a hardware failure and the one I'm using now wasn't set up for Internet access until today.
As I recall, GoW is playing China, which is industrious and militaristic (contrary to what the manual says). They start with Masonry and Warrior Code. If they want Bronze Working, they have to research it (or get it from a hut) the same as anyone else, although they may very well have finished researching it by now if that was their first priority. In any case, an exchange of starting techs would be their Warrior Code for our Ceremonial Burial. (And no, Alphabet is not one of our initial techs; we have Ceremonial Burial and Masonry.)
Given a reasonable choice, I don't want to trade The Wheel until we can arrange at least two deals at once. If we trade it to our nearest neighbor, odds are that they'll clean up playing middleman and we'll get left out in the cold.
If GoW has any sense, they won't start an ultra-early war on their own unless a good opportunity arises. (1) Their mercenary approach would work better if they don't turn the entire world against them right off the bat (and self-proclaimed warmongers who attack early would definitely not win popularity contests). (2) Attacking a competent opponent over any significant distance gives the defenders a significant time advantage, since defenders (including counterattacking forces) don't have far to travel. (3) A civ that attacks early could be very vulnerable to being double-teamed. (4) The imparative to keep some significant forces at home instead of throwing everything you have into an attack is a lot stronger in multiplayer. You can't strip your home bare and throw everything you have at the enemy the way I tend to in SP (at least not without huge risks). If GoW starts practically on top of someone, or if they catch a neighbor neglecting their defenses, they might do well attacking early. But otherwise, the most likely result would be that both civs would be weakened and the real winners would be the other civs that stay out of the fighting.
Nathan
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:24
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We have explored a large portion of our immediate surroundings and haven't found any horses yet. It would take some time before we find a source of horses, settle there and produce our first WC.
Sorry that I have to be such a party pooper.
Last edited by Shiber on 28-12-2002 at 00:01
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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Meshelic, I'm just kidding, but what if you reply to them something like: "Hey, if you have all the other teams' locations, you already now where we more or less are... why don't you tell us where we are, and we answer you if you are wrong or not?"
Sounds interesting 
Nah, I don't think they have gotten all the minimaps yet, and until we have WCs to go out scouting, I wouldn't trade the minimaps yet. We are more and more using our isolationist position for a pop-boom (or a city-diarhea like others would call it), we gain each turn we haven't met someone else.
But please stay polite in answering them, when we meet, the RPG team certainly is a possible candidate for trades.
DeepO
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Dominae
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Pure honesty would be fine in this case too:
"We prefer to be isolationist until we've got our bearings in our immediate surroundings; we'll surely contact you as the game progresses. Good luck in your initial endeavours."
Dominae
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:24
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Well, what about general bearing, such quadrant, do you still think we should keep it to ourselves?
After all, as already said, they can easily tell (at least roughly) where we are, if they traded the minimaps among themselves. Now, if we trade quadrant only, it would give them little, but earn us some credit in the foreign affairs bank?
We don't want to completely isolate ourselves, do we?
Please consider such a limited trade... (with the GoW, or any other team).
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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I received a very revealing PM from Godking today, who basically asked in which minimap we would be interested. I'll word it, and not quote the message, I'm not sure I can.
- first of all, there was kind of a situation report on what they already know, with way too much information. They certainly have a strange, even naive way of diplomacy... At this moment, they miss 3 minimaps, including ours. (so, they have 3 other teams locations). One of them is Lux, however they were the only one with whom they didn't trade, another team has located Lux' capital, and sold them that information as a icon on a black minimap. It was not said what this team got in return, and not whether they traded away their own minimap. But it is very interesting that someone is selling minimaps.
- They say they can't trade other maps, only their own. The reason (GK says, of course) is that they want to meet with us, urgently, to trade. It still might be possible, but needs discussion on the forum.
- further, the PM continued talking about their wonderful squid, inviting us to their tavern. GK further announces the cow falling season very soon, where they throw cows in the river, and watch them go into sea.
The hint is quite obvious, but I wonder whether this is a story based on the thruth, or simply something to distract us a bit. The message of 'we're doing good, with the sea nearby, and the upcoming city with cow(s)' is a bit too obvious, if you ask me.
I responded that I couldn't take any responsibility, but that the story of Lux' minimap was certainly interesting to us. Further I said we feared the direction of GoW, as we want honorable trades, and fear backstabbing. Lastly, I said we don't have squid, but that our wisemen were dreaming of applications of the magical powers of guano, stuff we have more then we need, and might want to trade away. (kind of a hint to the scientists everybody seemed to believe we are.)
So... I guess the answer will be the same to the RP team as it was to GoW: no thank you, no map information for now. Ideas?
DeepO
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24-12-2002 23:38
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