14-12-2002 14:02									#1
	Great Embassy: discussion on first contact Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ok, the first question is: What do we do in the cases of first contact?

The 2nd questions is: What should our response be based on the team we encounter?

I'll keep updating this post up top. I'm hoping that we can formulate a strategy on (a) how we approach first contact initially and (b) which strategy to use for each foreign team, based on the information we already know.

This is essentially just a quick reference thread for the Diplomatic Scholia for the time when we make contact.

Here's what we know so far, or what information has been posted:


LUX INVICTICA
1. Has already made contact w/ the Demogyptians
2. Has possibly made a trade w/Demogyptians
3. Is apparently looking for a tech partner
4. Probably will trade geographical information

DEMOGYPTICA
1. Has already made contact w/Lux Invictans.
2. Has possibly made a trade w/Lux Invictans
3. Requests map information from us for trade purposes

GLORY OF WAR
1. Has apparently not made contact w/anyone.
2. Are mercenaries and can be payed in cash/tech/artillery units...

EDIT/ add (3) for Demogyptica....

Last edited by Meshelic on 20-12-2002 at 07:38

	14-12-2002 14:19									#2
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What do you mean by trade?

If you mean ingame, that is higly doubtfull, unless they
started 2 tiles apart .
No road, no trade....

Good thread idea though

	14-12-2002 14:28									#3
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quote: Originally posted by alva What do you mean by trade? If you mean ingame, that is higly doubtfull, unless they started 2 tiles apart . No road, no trade.... Good thread idea though

Given the time they took, I think there's a strong possibility of a tech trade between them, and conceivably a more extensive consideration of what their long-term relationship should be.

Speaking of tech trades, civs that participate in the tech trading game will have a major advantage over those that don't.

Nathan

	14-12-2002 14:34									#4
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oh, I wasn't questioning if they are or arn't doing tech trade.
I do think they are, afterall, being able to do so this early, is to the advantage of the both of them.

That's why I asked, what he means by trade..

	14-12-2002 15:57									#5
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quote: Originally posted by alva That's why I asked, what he means by trade..

Sorry for not being more specific, when I said "trade" I meant it more as "whatever trade ability they can use" like trading techs, etc.

I can see how my statement might have been confusing...sorry.

	14-12-2002 16:31									#6
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So, my first question: can we somehow see what kind of techs a team has upon first contact? I tried it in a test game to myself once, and I couldn't find out... I could offer things, but not ask for things. Maybe I was wrong or didn't look hard enough (the game ended when one scout took my the other capital), so if there is some kind of possibility please speak up.

Second question: do we want early tech trades, and if so, are we going to trade military techs? I favor some non-military tech trades with about everyone (although the GoW doesn't seem a good partner in any case), military however is something completely different. And not all techs are equal either, so some kind of price has to be set on them internally (maybe expressed in gold, like 'at this stage of the game, literature is worth 250 gold to us, while monarchy is 350. Our map costs 1000, a small city 5000)

I don't think tech trades are immediately needed at first contact, unless we are ending a tech that turn, and need to trade one to proceed one level. Otherwise this is not such an ultimatum thing. And if we encounter someone who already is in contact with another team we haven't met, I would be very carefully with tech trades: the middleman will benefit gigantically.

DeepO

	14-12-2002 16:54									#7
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quote: So, my first question: can we somehow see what kind of techs a team has upon first contact?

As far as I can tell, you can see what tech you have, that the other one doesn't has, but you can't see what he has, that you don't have
(don't tell me this explanation isn't perfectly clear )

	14-12-2002 17:17									#8
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quote: Originally posted by alva As far as I can tell, you can see what tech you have, that the other one doesn't has, but you can't see what he has, that you don't have (don't tell me this explanation isn't perfectly clear )

That's how it looks to me as well, which is a seriously annoying discrepancy from how SP works.

I'm really not sure we can afford not to play in the tech trading game. If others do and we don't, we could get left in the rest of the world's dust so that the only way we'd have a chance of catching up would be to use our WCs to extort.

In terms of economic vs. military techs, a lot depends on the situation. But the last thing we want is for other civs to buy the military techs we could have sold them from someone else instead. If that happens, they get the tech anyhow, and we get nothing.

Nathan

	14-12-2002 17:51									#9
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I agree with Nathan, we can't afford ouselves to stay out of the tech race. As for military techs, maybe on a tech for tech basis, but in the event we won't find anyone for long when others have, we must, IMHO, trade for whatever we can, unless we want to be taken as "the lost civ", being probably last in the tech race. Although our position might allow us a precise early strike against our closest neighbor, we can't rely on extortion alone.
We better get a clear picture of who knows who, and the trades taking place. We must judge the situation according to how the others are doing it since we wouldn't want to stay behind, nor being the 'suckers' that sell military secrets, but i'd suggest the early meeting will include a tech trade.

On this note, i think that the little 'army' of warriors we have gethered so far will help us in the effort of staying ahead, for the following reasons:

1)if there are barbs at all we'll probably find one, and maybe get a tech.

2)we might find more then one civ early on, which means we can become a middleman in tech trades.

	14-12-2002 17:58									#10
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quote: Originally posted by zeit 2)we might find more then one civ early on, which means we can become a middleman in tech trades.

Our map position is completely wrong for becoming tech middlemen, unless our neighbor to the north (assuming we aren't on an island) completely blows it in regard to exploration. And even then, our status would be temporary at best.

Nathan

	14-12-2002 18:12									#11
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Yeah, a middleman position seems not our option, except if we would get some early galleys going (which I feel we should focus on in all scenarios). Which means we will have to deal with middlemen ourselves.

So far, everyone seems to agree that we should cautiously trade techs, to not fall behind. There is one problem with this (maybe not relevant, though), and that is the shorter lifespan of our WCs and the faster UUs for the 'later' Civs. Might be something to keep in mind during negotiations (when determining a price)

DeepO

	14-12-2002 18:24									#12
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I wouldn't agree that we can't be middlman, although our position is definitely a disadvantage, i could easily think of a scenario in which we might have neigbors to the NW and NE, and as said, if we are quick enough with our scouts, we might get a temporary position as middleman. That just might be what we need to keep up with the pace.
Otherwise we have little options, IMHO, except an early strike in the hope of tech gains, to keep up with the race. (unless of course most of the others have started in a similar position).

I hardly think anyone will have that many scouts so early on, and this seems to be our main advantage right now. I'd hate to see it go to waste, but just as you said, our position is a disadvantage in terms of scouting and tech trades, i hope your speculation will turn out wrong in the end...

	14-12-2002 18:41									#13
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On a pangea map, I seriously doubt that we could slow down the world's overall pace of research significantly by refusing to trade. On a continents map, we probably could slow down our own continent's overall research rate, but doing so would give the civs on the other continent a significant advantage (or deprive our own continent of a significant advantage). Either way, I don't think it's a winning move for us because other civs would be trading while we aren't. We might slow them down, but we'd slow ourselves down more, which would very seriously undermine our WCs' "second life" as knights or cavalry.

Nathan

	14-12-2002 20:01									#14
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Demo:

Since we havn't seen any Barbs yet, it is more and more safe to say, that there arn't any around ( not 100% ).

As they are the only expansionist civ in the game, they are certainly playing with a handicap.
This isn't noticable yet, and won't be for quite a while, but it will someday

	14-12-2002 21:08									#15
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Some comments:

1. Contacts: no assumptions

We don't know 100% for sure that anyone has contacted anyone. Possible alternative scenarios include they're trying to meet at a neutral spot (like we hoped to do with LI), or they just happened to have internal bugs to work out at approximately the same time. But, I agree, it is something to keep in mind.

2. Tech trading: a good thing

As Egypt, we start with Ceremonial Burial and Masonry. I don't believe those techs to be pivotal early-game techs, so I'm not against trading either away (for a reasonable price, of course). No matter what we plan to do with our neighbors, we should trade techs first above all. This is the way it works in SP, and I believe we should do the same here. Giving up The Wheel is another story...

3. First contact: buy time

I suggest we be cordial but non-commital (other than tech trading) with any civ we contact early. We say something like "we're a little busy coping with this brave new world" or something. This gives us more time to explore and ascertain their relative strength and positioning, and, more importantly, see if whether a third civ is within reach. This early on, what we ultimately do will be a tactical decision, not a diplomatic one (i.e. attack if we can win, trade if they'll put up a fight). Given the apparent size of our island, I'm not comfortable with a long-term trading partner just yet.

4. Intentions: testing out the waters

A possible way of determining another civ's intentions towards us would be to tell them straight up that we have two sets of Luxuries available, and that we're more than willing to trade them. Despite the low difficulty level, I think their reaction to these resources will be very telling of their attitude towards us.

5. Opportunity: first blood

What do we do if we stumble onto a momentarily undefended capital, or Settler, or even Worker? Do we seize the day, crippling our nearest neighbor, or work out a deal? Again, I'm inclined to attack first, because what they can give us at this stage in the game is relatively little. Attacking them first may be mean, but it's still honorable (as far as I know).

6. Diplomacy: three's company

I still think that our overall diplomatic efforts revolve around whether we're along with one other civ, or if there are multiple teams to contend with. Until we know this for sure, I'm inclined to put off anything commital (other than tech-trading), such as warfare and deals.


Dominae

	14-12-2002 22:23									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae 5. Opportunity: first blood What do we do if we stumble onto a momentarily undefended capital, or Settler, or even Worker? Do we seize the day, crippling our nearest neighbor, or work out a deal? Again, I'm inclined to attack first, because what they can give us at this stage in the game is relatively little. Attacking them first may be mean, but it's still honorable (as far as I know).

I would consider the most honorable thing that we ask for a way out of diplomatic situations. If they left their capital undefended, there is little point to diplo, we should take it, period. Settlers is something else: we probably could strike a deal (it has to happen before we move our turn, though), so they buy safe passage of their settler. Workers are not worth fighting for so early in the game, and certainly not if we risk to upset a trading partner which maybe made contact to someone else. But undefended workers could certainly be an incentive to start a war early, or to help tilt the balence when deciding if we are going to war, I consider those nice extras

DeepO

	15-12-2002 02:52									#17
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Hmm, I tend to think of the settler grabbing or "safe passage" deal as rather cruel thing to do the unwary rival. One bets on sending his little red riding settler for a little trip to make a little town near the forest, and the big bad wolf (that's us) takes the loot. I don't say we shouldn't do it, but look at our options: If we take the settler we are cruel opportunists, if we ask for a 'fee' for its free passage, we risk being crossed (In their turn they move it away from danger, and we end with nothing). If they pay us, we end up being the bully that extorts the kids in the block.

Perhaps we should take it, and then sell them the workers...
But then again, it's likely they won't have anything to offer so early on .

I'd juge the situation accordingly, perhaps if it's the Roleplay settler, we won't take it and tell them that we consider it a debt of honor.

	15-12-2002 03:01									#18
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The real question is what kind of long-term relationship we want with the civ and, to some extent, with the rest of the world. If we attack, or even if we use the threat of attack to extort, we make an enemy for life (or at least until they hate or are afraid of someone else more) and the world sees us as aggressors. So our gain had better be commensurate with that cost.

Nathan

	15-12-2002 03:41									#19
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It depends, but the gain is worth it, if we stumble onto their second, or third settler. I agree, extortion might not be considered very sympathic, but if we give these kind of presents to our neighbour, we will be viewed as weak. Sure, it is opportunistic, but what civ wouldn't do it in the same situation? After a few cities are settled, the gain decreases rapidly, and we can be more mellow about it, but if they leave their 2nd settler out in the open uprotected, we can't give it away... the gain is too great for not doing it.

But there are some problems: it has to happen on our turn, so their settler needs to move towards us, instead of our scout moving towards them. Otherwise, they can indeed move away, and the only thing we could get from trying to extort them (apart from bluffing, of course) is a bit of a delay in their settling... there is only small gain there, and not worth the risk of sounding like a bully. Which is why we would have to stop the game on our turn, and not on theirs.

If we move towards their settler, we can't threaten to take it, but we could ask for a nice trade deal... call it a shotgun wedding: they have to be happy to trade, if they don't want that something bad might happen in our relation. In this case, it can only be implicit, or we could try to take the threat away (still hinting at it) in case we would be friends. It still might not be the best thing to happen to us in our diplo contacts, but after all it is their fault, they shouldn't move a settler without a guard. We are not to blame for getting in that situation.

DeepO

	15-12-2002 03:50									#20
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Playing a game against other teams in order to win means that we'll have to become the Big Bad Wolf eventually. If we're planning on attacking our nearest neighbor anyway (something, as Nathan pointed out, we need to discuss; I assume we would attack Glory of War immediately, but not Roleplay), we're crippling ourselves by not capturing their Settlers and Workers (by the way, capturing early Workers is quite an advantage). If the first team that makes an aggressive move is blacklisted by all the other teams...well, I don't understand that logic. If Lux Invicta ruthlessly attacks Legoland, are we not to trust LI ever again?


Dominae

	15-12-2002 04:09									#21
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I agree that there might be a great gain for this sort of thing, but more in the form of crippling the opponent. With that said, we should focus on that opponent that we weakend, and wipe him out/bring him to his knees till he is willing to give up /tech/gold/lux/cities etc.

But since we are talking about early settlers, we probably won't have the army to support it, unless we are preparing for this kind of a quick (very) early war. Speaking of which i'm in favor of such war- we have the UU for this (and wiping someone out is worth the GA IMO) and we are are scouting pretty seriously, which means we can have an advantage when it comes to quick precise assaults.

I think attacking stray settlers is a cause for war, on both sides, its more like someone is telling the other that: I want to handicap you, more than he says: I want to strengthen myself (with two worker that actually equals one native).

So both sides jump to war straight away, it would be silly to excpect otherwise. The greatest danger would be that they have an ally.

And regarding the "inevitable" war with the GoW- what's up with you guys? we can manipulate them, we can use them, their mercenary trait is just asking for it. The mercenaries throughout history survived, that's true, but they never became greater power than those who skillfuly employed them. Anyway, GoW might not be a good target early on- they are probably focusing on plans of building their military might. We should wait untill they are ripe- with less advanced techs and cities, weary from foreign wars, and then strike.

	15-12-2002 05:59									#22
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We need a very careful cost/benefit analysis before we consider fighting an early war. Unless we're in a position to translate weakening an opponent into strengthening ourselves fairly quickly, the cost could easily outweigh any benefit we get out of the fighting. That's doubly true if it means blowing our GA under despotism when most of our cities are too corrupt to use it to build up their infrastrucutre.

Picking off one of a civ's first couple settlers, should the opportunity fall into our laps, would probably be worth it. Odds are good that we could convince our victim to cut their losses rather than further weaken themselves against what would, after their loss, be a stronger opponent. But even that could be a mistake if our main near-term need is for a research partner rather than for more territory.

Nathan

	15-12-2002 06:01									#23
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Agreed. As always, we need more info...


Dominae

	15-12-2002 06:20									#24
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quote: Originally posted by zeit And regarding the "inevitable" war with the GoW- what's up with you guys? we can manipulate them, we can use them, their mercenary trait is just asking for it. The mercenaries throughout history survived, that's true, but they never became greater power than those who skillfuly employed them. Anyway, GoW might not be a good target early on- they are probably focusing on plans of building their military might. We should wait untill they are ripe- with less advanced techs and cities, weary from foreign wars, and then strike.

Agreed; GoW should first be considered as a tool, I think.

Why go head-to-head, when either we or another team can hire GoW to conduct a war, and then mortally wound them or even take them out when exhausted?

Thus, two or more teams hurt.

	15-12-2002 06:31									#25
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Some sidecomments to the GoW situation. Their mercenary role will not prevent them from being opportunistic themselves, and if we are the first and only contact they have, it is entirely possible that they attack us without any contract on our heads.

Further, I agree fully that if they are off fighting someone else's war, they would make a fine target, but we can't wait too long for it. The beauty of their chosen game strategy is that they are getting paid for some war, while most likely the spoils of the war are theirs as well. If someone pays them to capture / destroy a city, they both get the bounty as the city. I imagine that all deals with them that are in the line of 'capture that city, and give it to us' will be extremely costly.

I don't fear the GoW specifically, but if nobody stands up against them, they have the chance of becoming the biggest civ... they are very dangerous, so if we see a chance of damaging them seriously, we should.

DeepO

	20-12-2002 07:39									#26
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*bump*

Some new info added, anything else new out there I need to update?

-Mesh

	24-12-2002 16:57									#27
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NEW INFO

Panzer32 of GoW fame has proposed a deal. It follows this guide:

1.) If our two teams meet before any others, then they would like to trade THEIR initial techs (which I believe is bronze working and...? for OUR initial techs (ceremonial burial and alphabet).
2.) If we do not meet eachother first, this contract is null and void.

That is the only catch. We trade our first tech's for theirs if we meet them before we meet anyone else. And likewise. If we meet someone else first, then the deal is off.

What do you guys think?

	24-12-2002 17:32									#28
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This deal will not favor us if we're going to research bronze working next. Besides, I see little point in committing at this stage.
If we do meet then we'd obviously have an interest to trade techs, regardless of what contracts we've signed before actual contact was made.

	24-12-2002 17:34									#29
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Well.. the catch here is that if they make this deal with more teams, they are assured that their first target for their archers spills their techs to them, and doesn't get much in return. Their initial techs are bronze working and warrior code, which are very powerful techs very early in the game, but not the best to get half way through. Of course they like to trade them to someone else, certainly if they plan on having a couple of archers ready to march in.

Bronze working would be welcome now, but is likely to be the first tech we are going to research anyway (if I'm not mistaken). So if we wouldn't meet them now, but in 10 turns time it's not nearly so useful. We can't wait either, as we need to get to ironworking soon.
Warrior code is not useful for us atm, we don't need it to get to HBR, as we already have WCs in a few turns. But, we would give away masonry and temples, one tech that they wouldn't research but value anyway, and one that is needed for later military techs like mathematics. Not a good deal, in our respect. if we haven't got bronzeworking already, or wouldn't be researching it I can live with it, if they toss in a couple of gold, or a map or something.

DeepO

	24-12-2002 18:41									#30
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Indeed, this sounds like a lobsided(?) deal to me too.

I guess we could agree to it, and when we do meet, just say we just made contact with someone else.
hmm, nah...

btw: that would mean that if we meet them, we virtually have no defense(at least we would have some attacking units). If an other team goes for this, there would be some major risks involved IMO.