16-12-2002 04:32									#1
	The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Legend of Zelda preview

This game looks pretty damn sweet. I'm particularly intrigued by the sailing in the game; it should add an interesting twist to the familiar Zelda format. Anyone else as excited about this game as I am?

If I spoke a little more Japanese, I would import this game right now. The anticipation is killing me. Only three more months...

Last edited by Drake Tungsten on 17-12-2002 at 08:26

	16-12-2002 04:51									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Another Zelda Preview

A little more information on the controversial graphics in this preview.

	17-12-2002 06:38									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

More impressions on the game from Gamespot.

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/storie...2901877,00.html

And the IGN preview is no longer Insider-only.

http://cube.ign.com/articles/380/380217p1.html

Now if only someone else would post in this thread...

	17-12-2002 08:25									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

More news.

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/storie...2901949,00.html

Nintendo has confirmed that it will include the Ocarina of Time/Ocarina of Time Ura bonus disc in America along with every pre-ordered copy of The Wind Waker. Basically, if you pre-order The Wind Waker you'll get a complete GameCube port of Ocarina of Time and the harder Ura version of the same game. A good bonus, especially for those of us who don't have an N64.

Looks like I'll be pre-ordering my first game ever.

	17-12-2002 11:38									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

Gimick to encourage people to pre-order makes me more suspicious if anything.

I'm going to rent it first. I downloaded a couple dozen videos off IGN of the game and I think the graphics are going to totally put me off.

Kudos to those who like the graphics, though, I bet you'll be in for a treat.

	17-12-2002 12:03									#6
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quote: Gimick to encourage people to pre-order makes me more suspicious if anything.

I don't think it is a gimmick. They did it in Japan, where bonus-items like that are extremely common, but didn't have any plans on doing it in North America at first. They only decided to do it in America after a ton of people wrote them asking for it.

I'm certainly glad they're doing it, as I wouldn't mind having my own copy of Ocarina of Time, for free no less. Seems like a good deal.

	17-12-2002 12:08									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I played OOT on the N64 so it's not a big selling point for me...

	17-12-2002 12:11									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

So did I, but I wouldn't mind playing it again. And it's always nice to add a classic game to your collection.

	20-12-2002 03:48									#9
	Put an end to popups!

i just hope it has a bit more advanced and deeper gameplay than the zelda 64 games. if it just turns out to be a deluxe version of the zelda 64 games(like how mario sunshine was mario 64 deluxe) i'll be quite disapppointed.

Last edited by pg on 20-12-2002 at 03:55

	20-12-2002 12:17									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Zelda's flying out of stores and pushing GameCubes in Japan.

quote: Zelda Sells 400,000 Nintendo's legendary franchise debuts on GCN with grand sales. December 18, 2002 - According to Bloomberg Japan and tracking service Media Create, Nintendo's Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker has debuted in Japan to sell over 400,000 copies within its first week of release. This bolstered sales of the console to over 65,000. Compare that to the roughly 25,000 it sold in Media Create's last report, and it can be assumed that this spike is a result of the release of Zelda, one of the most recognized franchises in the industry. In contrast, Sony's PlayStation 2 sold over 115,000 units and Microsoft's Xbox over 13,000.

And the Xbox is still selling like crap in Japan. Good news all around.

	20-12-2002 14:10									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Tell us the UK sales figures, Drake

You know, with the Gamecube selling ~1/3rd as well as the Xbox

Also interesting to note is 13,000 is a huge improvement over the 2,000 a couple weeks ago

What the hell is going on?

(And if 13,000 is crap, then the Gamecube's been selling like crap for the vast majority of the year -- look at the sales stats. GC sales hovered around 10K-13K most of the year)

	20-12-2002 14:26									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Tell us the UK sales figures, Drake

Who cares about the UK? It isn't the home of most of the major console game developers; Japan is. Selling consoles in the UK won't have nearly as much benefit for MS as breaking into Japan would. Looks like they're doomed to third place in the land of the Rising Sun, however.

	21-12-2002 00:57									#13
	Tired of ads?

It doesn't matter if Japan is home to whoever, they make games for the largest markets.

Japan is now the smallest market behind Europe and North America.

Xbox has been doomed to third place in Japan since it launched. It's a large American console trying to break into a Japanese-entrenched country that's suffering from a shrinking game market with a sinking economy. Go figure that it's not doing well at all.

In the UK and the US, however, the GCN is doomed to third place. That would worry me far more than Japan.

PS: The game that sold the most worldwide last year was made by a UK company.

PPS: Japanese influence in gaming is dropping pretty rapidly. Mario is no longer the blockbuster, but GTA3... Japan is virtually the only market still clinging on to the Japanese style games en masse (duh), which is why the Xbox flops there and does well everywhere else.

The "GCN is doing better in Japan so it's in a better position" is absoutely laughable. The people who say it are living in the past. Look at the game selection: Xbox has sold more hardware and software titles in every other market BUT Japan than the GCN throughout 2002 -- the fact that the Xbox is flopping in Japan means jack **** to those outside of Japan.

Welcome to the new world of video game entertainment. Dominated by American giants like Electronic Arts (who sell 1 out of every 4 games world wide) and quickly taking the place of the oldstyle Japanese companies (Capcom, Konami, etc).

	21-12-2002 05:25									#14
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quote: The "GCN is doing better in Japan so it's in a better position" is absoutely laughable.

Look, it's Asher putting words in my mouth again! Yeah!

I never said this. I merely said that the Xbox is selling like crap in Japan and that Japan is a more important market than the UK. I stand by my statements.

America and Japan are the two vital videogame markets. The US is the most important market just because of its sheer size; to make a profit you have to do well in America. Japan is vital not because of its size, but because success in Japan gains the support of Japanese developers, who are still crucial even if you don't want to admit it. The UK and Europe as a whole are a sideshow; a profitable sideshow, but a sideshow none the less.

Doing well in Europe is nice for MS, but I'm relatively sure that they would prefer some success in Japan. If the Xbox keeps selling like this in Japan, MS is going to have an impossible time pulling Japanese developer support away from Sony. Without that support, MS can't supplant Sony as the leader in consoles, which is Microsoft's goal.

PS: A large percentage of EA's business is made up of games from Square. Where's Square from, Asher?

	21-12-2002 06:50									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: The "GCN is doing better in Japan so it's in a better position" is absoutely laughable. Look, it's Asher putting words in my mouth again! Yeah! I never said this.

Dose of irony: Where did I say you said it.

quote: Japan is vital not because of its size, but because success in Japan gains the support of Japanese developers, who are still crucial even if you don't want to admit it.

Japanese developers don't care how well it does in the Japanese market, just in their target game market. If they're going to make a game that will sell well in North America, it doesn't matter if the console doesn't exist in Japan...

quote: PS: A large percentage of EA's business is made up of games from Square. Where's Square from, Asher?

Define "large percentage".
And sources.

Final Fantasy games sell significantly less than games like Madden, and Madden comes out every year...

	21-12-2002 13:07									#16
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quote: Dose of irony: Where did I say you said it.

Then why did you bring it up?

quote: Japanese developers don't care how well it does in the Japanese market, just in their target game market. If they're going to make a game that will sell well in North America, it doesn't matter if the console doesn't exist in Japan...

You really don't know anything about Japanese culture or the motives of Japanese game developers. They do care how well a console does in the Japanese market and they are reluctant to make games that will not sell in Japan. That is why developers like Sega and producers like Hideo Kojima are viewed as mavericks in the Japanese development community; they make games targeted solely at the Western audience. Most Japanese developers don't and frown upon such behavior.

	21-12-2002 13:44									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Then why did you bring it up?

Couldn't you see I was ranting?

quote: You really don't know anything about Japanese culture or the motives of Japanese game developers. They do care how well a console does in the Japanese market and they are reluctant to make games that will not sell in Japan. That is why developers like Sega and producers like Hideo Kojima are viewed as mavericks in the Japanese development community; they make games targeted solely at the Western audience. Most Japanese developers don't and frown upon such behavior.

Hello?
Tecmo and Sega have given MS fantastic support (some might say better than Nintendo and Sony) despite the Xbox tanking in Japan.

Don't lecture me on how Japanese culture and business works, you're ignoring the real big picture.

Most Japanese developers make crap games that VERY few people outside of Japan care for. Games like Dragon Quest would sell like crap in North America. There's the odd blockbuster like Final Fantasy but it's hardly a critical point in the market anymore.

You're bound to bring up MGS2 -- that is not a Japanese game, despite who developed it. It's very much an American style game. Not to mention the fact that Splinter Cell is a better game in the same category, and came from Canada of all places.

Some Japanese game companies don't care about the market outside of their own. They develop games for the Japanese market and maybe release ports of them in other languages later, but those HARDLY make up any significant portion of game sales outside of Japan. Companies like Konami are rapidly losing marketshare to companies like Rare, Rockstar, and Bungie.

As much as Nintendo fans love to plug their ears and ignore it, the majority of the video game market is moving away from the classic Japanese style games many people loved.

	21-12-2002 14:03									#18
	Remove this text

quote: Tecmo and Sega have given MS fantastic support (some might say better than Nintendo and Sony) despite the Xbox tanking in Japan.

I'm well aware of Sega's support of the Xbox, but like I said, they're a maverick among Japanese game developers. And let's be honest, Sega isn't known for its wise business decisions...

BTW, what has Tecmo put out on the Xbox lately? I don't remember anything other than Dead or Alive 3. I'm not a big Tecmo fan, so I don't follow them very closely.

quote: Don't lecture me on how Japanese culture and business works, you're ignoring the real big picture.

Excuse me for thinking that Japanese culture and business practice might be relevant to a discussion of the behavior of Japanese game developers...

quote: Most Japanese developers make crap games that VERY few people outside of Japan care for.

quote: You're bound to bring up MGS2 -- that is not a Japanese game, despite who developed it.

It is an American style game, but it was still made by a Japanese development team led by a Japanese producer working for a Japanese development house. It is a Japanese game, whether you want to admit it or not.

quote: As much as Nintendo fans love to plug their ears and ignore it, the majority of the video game market is moving away from the classic Japanese style games many people loved.

You're right. No one cares about Zelda, Mario, Sonic, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, or Final Fantasy anymore. Japanese developers are irrelevant, since they don't make any good games anymore.

You slay me, Ashie.

	21-12-2002 14:24									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I'm well aware of Sega's support of the Xbox, but like I said, they're a maverick among Japanese game developers. And let's be honest, Sega isn't known for its wise business decisions...

So basically one of the very largest and most influential Japanese game companies (one who used to make many successful consoles of its own, in fact) is just to be ignored when you want to try to make a point?

And how about KOEI, what do think about them and their Xbox support?

quote: BTW, what has Tecmo put out on the Xbox lately? I don't remember anything other than Dead or Alive 3. I'm not a big Tecmo fan, so I don't follow them very closely.

Fatal Frame (though not exclusive), Dead or Alive: eXtreme Beach Volleyball ( ), Ninja Gaiden (exclusive also)

quote: Excuse me for thinking that Japanese culture and business practice might be relevant to a discussion of the behavior of Japanese game developers...

They are, but you don't seem to know too much about it. Many of the biggest Japanese companies are supporting a console failing in their home market. You're sitting here telling me that Japanese game makers only make games that would sell in their own country in general.

quote:

You laugh...but have you SEEN the bestsellers list in Japan?

From the latest list...

1. Pocket Monsters Ruby/Saphire
2. Rockman EX 3
3. Shinobi
4. Momotarou Dentetsu 11
5. Tales of Destiny 2
6. SD Gundam G Generation Neo
7. Ratchet & Clank
8. Derby Stallion Advance
9. Dark Chronicle
10. Mario Party 4
11. Lupin the Third
12. Shin Megamitensei 9
etc

Quite clearly, the majority of those games wouldn't move any respectable amount of copies in North America.

quote: It is an American style game, but it was still made by a Japanese development team led by a Japanese producer working for a Japanese development house. It is a Japanese game, whether you want to admit it or not.

It doesn't matter if it was made in Japan, it was an American stylized game that was in fact outdone by a development house in Canada with a fraction of MGS2's budget. Yes, technically it was a Japanese game, but it was not a Japanese style game by any means.

IIRC, MGS2 sold WAY better outside of Japan than it did inside of Japan.

quote: You're right. No one cares about Zelda, Mario, Sonic, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, or Final Fantasy anymore. Japanese developers are irrelevant, since they don't make any good games anymore.

It's not that "no one cares", it's that "more people don't care".

Look at the pathetic SMS sales. Look at the slumping Gamecube sales in general outside of Japan.

Those style of games aren't nearly as popular as the other forms out there.

Hell, Dead or Alive 3 has outsold Super Mario Sunshine outside of Japan.

	21-12-2002 14:51									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Many of the biggest Japanese companies are supporting a console failing in their home market.

Two does not equal many. And Tecmo isn't giving much support, if they're only giving the Xbox three exclusives.

quote: You're sitting here telling me that Japanese game makers only make games that would sell in their own country in general.

Again, no I didn't say that. I said that Japanese game makers are reluctant to support a console that flops in Japan. If they do decide to support a console, they obviously craft some games for the Japanese market and some for the American market, but the initial decision to support a console is heavily affected by the success of said console in Japan. As such, the chances of the Xbox attracting more substantial support from Japanese developers seem to be waning with the continued failure of the Xbox to break into Japan.

quote: 2. Rockman EX 3

Yeah, Megaman!

quote: Yes, technically it was a Japanese game, but it was not a Japanese style game by any means.

Why the hell does the style of the game matter? My point has been that the Xbox needs the support of Japanese developers if they want to dethrone Sony and the Playstation. It doesn't matter whether the MGS series is an American style game; it is made by a Japanese company and will therefore not be available to Xbox owners if Konami decides it doesn't want to support the Xbox anymore. If the Xbox doesn't do well in Japan, it will attract fewer Japanese developers and will consequently have fewer Japanese made games available to its users. It's a pretty simple scenario to understand...

quote: Look at the pathetic SMS sales.

I think the slow sales of SMS are due more to a lackluster game than to a sudden lack of interest in the Mario franchise. If Mario 128 flops, then maybe I'll buy your argument, but I'm just not seeing it right now. Japanese franchises are still the biggest game sellers in the world, outside of sports games.

quote: It's not that "no one cares", it's that "more people don't care".

This is true, but the Japanese game developers have not been supplanted yet. They are still the most influential group of game makers in the world and no console wants to be left out in the cold by them, Xbox included.

	21-12-2002 15:07									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Two does not equal many. And Tecmo isn't giving much support, if they're only giving the Xbox three exclusives.

They gave Xbox its DOA and Ninja Gaiden series as exclusives.
PS2 got "Rygar" as an exclusive.
Gamecube got nadda.

That's not "much support" from Tecmo?

DOA and Ninja Gaiden are, by far, Tecmo's biggest franchises.

quote: Why the hell does the style of the game matter?

What the hell does it matter the political boundaries of where the developers live when they made the game? MGS2 is an American-style game, which could have just have easily been made by a North American company.

North American companies, try as they might, cannot really replicate with quality any "Japanese" title. They make their own style of game, a la Metroid Prime (which was developed in Texas).

quote: My point has been that the Xbox needs the support of Japanese developers if they want to dethrone Sony and the Playstation.

My point is this is not necessarily the case. The blowout best sellers (and system movers) are not Japanese games for either the Xbox or the PS2. 5 years ago this was absolutely true, but now the Japanese influence is shrinking along with Japan's economy and the booming industry in North American and Europe.

quote: It doesn't matter whether the MGS series is an American style game; it is made by a Japanese company and will therefore not be available to Xbox owners if Konami decides it doesn't want to support the Xbox anymore. If the Xbox doesn't do well in Japan, it will attract fewer Japanese developers and will consequently have fewer Japanese made games available to its users. It's a pretty simple scenario to understand...

It is, but it doesn't mean it's valid.
Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance, for example. Splinter Cell is outselling it something like ten to one right now... They came out nearly on the same day. (And you do know MGS2: Substance came out first on Xbox, and will be out on PS2 in 2003 right?)

quote: I think the slow sales of SMS are due more to a lackluster game than to a sudden lack of interest in the Mario franchise. If Mario 128 flops, then maybe I'll buy your argument, but I'm just not seeing it right now. Japanese franchises are still the biggest game sellers in the world, outside of sports games.

Why excluding sports games? Sports games are a HUGE segment.
You also exclude "minor" franchises like Halo and Grand Theft Auto? Why?

quote: This is true, but the Japanese game developers have not been supplanted yet. They are still the most influential group of game makers in the world and no console wants to be left out in the cold by them, Xbox included.

Most influential, yet they sell a minority of video games outside of Japan...

	21-12-2002 15:24									#22
	Suffering from ads?

quote: What the hell does it matter the political boundaries of where the developers live when they made the game?

It's not the political boundaries that matter; it's the cultural boundaries. The Japanese are a very insular and group-oriented society, a concept you can't seem to grasp. Japanese culture gives Sony a huge advantage over Microsoft in courting Japanese third parties and MS doesn't seem to be overcoming those difficulties.

quote: Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance, for example. Splinter Cell is outselling it something like ten to one right now... They came out nearly on the same day.

You can't be serious about this. Comparing an improved port of a year-old PS2 game to a brand new game? Of course Splinter Cell is selling better; most people have already played MGS2.

quote: Most influential, yet they sell a minority of video games outside of Japan...

If you want to think that MS can dethrone Sony without the support of Japanese developers, then go right ahead. You're entitled to your opinion. I think you're dead wrong, however, and am relatively sure that future events will demonstrate the wisdom of my views. MS certainly seems to think that the Japanese developers are still important, as they are pulling out all the stops to court them. I guess we'll just have to wait and see who's right...

Good night.

	21-12-2002 15:29									#23
	Remove this text

MS can dethrone Sony, but they don't need the support of Japanese developers to do so.

The majority of games bought and sold in North America and Europe are not Japanese games. This is a statistical fact.

MS does have support of Japanese developers to the extent it needs to be successful in North America and Europe. The ONLY reason the PS2 is selling more right now is brand name, momentum, and because it's "the PS2". People aren't looking at them and thinking "wait -- am I going to get Japanese games on this??". They're wondering if they can play GTA3 on it, or they're getting an Xbox and wondering if they can play Halo on it.

All MS needs to overtake Sony is the popular games in each region. Most of the popular games outside of Japan are not, in fact, Japanese.

Of course Japanese developers help every bit, but I also see MS buying companies like Rare instead of buying companies like Capcom (who is reportedly up for sale) -- which tells you which MS considers more important.

	01-01-2003 12:37									#24
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quote: MS does have support of Japanese developers to the extent it needs to be successful in North America and Europe. The ONLY reason the PS2 is selling more right now is brand name, momentum, and because it's "the PS2". People aren't looking at them and thinking "wait -- am I going to get Japanese games on this??".

The reason I decided to buy a PS2 over the Xbox was seeing Virtua Fighter 4 for twenty bucks at Best Buy. A Japanese game, exclusive for the PS2, that made up my undecided mind...

Happy New Year, everybody!!!

	01-02-2003 09:37									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I played the Zelda demo at Best Buy tonight and I was very impressed. The graphics are great and the gameplay is just as good as it's always been. I can't wait for this game!

	01-02-2003 10:13									#26
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Oh look! Its Celda.....

Anyway, I've played the N64 games and they were great. What I thought was really great about them was the immersive graphics....And on an emulator their even better. See, for these type of games you gotta have ATMOSPHERE, and Celda doesn't seem like it'll be able to deliver.

I did think Nintendo was trying to shake the kiddy image, not embrace it. Oh well....Theyre tanking everywhere except Japan, and Japan has already proven itself to be the last of the major console markets. Though I dont like the XBOX either, I must admit I am attracted a bit to it and it does appear to be selling well here in America and in Europe.....

But for now, I'll stick with the best console of all: THE PC. (Windows PC, that is )

	01-02-2003 10:45									#27
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quote: See, for these type of games you gotta have ATMOSPHERE, and Celda doesn't seem like it'll be able to deliver.

Just wait till you play the game; the new graphics create more atmosphere than Ocarina of Time ever had. It's like seeing A Link to the Past in 3D and I love it...

	01-02-2003 10:47									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: See, for these type of games you gotta have ATMOSPHERE, and Celda doesn't seem like it'll be able to deliver. Just wait till you play the game; the new graphics create more atmosphere than Ocarina of Time ever had. It's like seeing A Link to the Past in 3D and I love it...

No, I want things to look REALISTIC and BEAUTIFUL, not cartoony. Not cell-shaded.

	01-02-2003 10:54									#29
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I thought you wanted atmosphere?

If you want realism, then you won't like the new Zelda. If you want atmosphere, however, then you'll love the new style.

	01-02-2003 12:58									#30
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I want complete realism.

Where are the bathrooms in Zelda games?