17-12-2002 10:03									#31
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The Vice Presidency is a very important position as this is the person who assume full Presidential powers if our President dissapears due to snowstorm, fried CPU, family emergency, or other real life hazards.

I would feel comfortable seeing Panag in this job if he can demonstrate the ability to lead and manage this great and complex nation of ours, but I have yet seen that, as he has never before served in public office.

Perhaps Panag's casual and obtuse style is just him being humorous. I don't know. I would like to see some serious planning, commentary, organization or the like first before I feel comfortable giving him the backup Pres job.

--Togas

	17-12-2002 12:52									#32
	Increase Your PM Length

Relating to some of the things that have been said in this thread:

quote: Originally posted by panag panag has always been there from the start , sometimes asking for things that seemes completely kiwi like , but in the end his words prevailed

OK, give us one example.

quote: Originally posted by dejon I mentioned in a thread just the other day that while some of his posts were confusing, others had geniune insight in them.

I honestly can't think of any.
In any case, I'm not going to vote for a VP candidate whose posts are often so vague that they can be interpreted in so many ways, even if some of those interpretations make some, though little, sense.

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb The VP is an extremely important and strategic position. I would gladly vote for panag in a smaller office but would like to see the results of him being serious at least once before supporting him in a position this important. I do not view these offices as popularity contests but as serious positions to strive towards winning the game.

Well spoken!

quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed So yes from me. I guess I have one question Panag.... Can you be direct, clear and dependable?

quote: Originally posted by panag "yes"

Is this a promise that we can rely on Panag? Or are you going to come and disappear again without warning like you did for the last several months. And why the quotation marks around your answer?

-----

As for my reasons for voting no,
1. Panag has never contributed to the game in any way, in my opinion. Yes, he may have contributed to the atmosphere and entertained us several times, but not to the actual game.
2. I CANNOT vote for someone who often doesn't have any idea what is going on in the game!! I've seen him posting about the war with Persia and how we should show Xerxes and get the Pyramids over a month after it was over. I've seen him posting countless times about things that have already been discussed over a week ago, sometimes in the same thread!
A VP has to participate in the game, not come and go as Panag does.
3. Panag has never participated in any turnchats. As far as I know he doesn't even know how a turnchat looks like, or that these days turnchats can last for 8 hours. How can he commit to being able to hold turnchats if he has no past experience? I don't know about you, but his promise seems completely devoid of any actual backing, especially given his past patterns of behavior and posting in this game.
4. Take no personal offense in this Panag (like you unjustifiably have several times before), but I strongly doubt that you'd be able to understand the New Con, given your somewhat problematic language skills.

Honestly, I have loads of reasons why not to vote for Panag which are not personal, but I feel that these are the major four, and they're certainly enough to convince me not to vote for this candidate.

	17-12-2002 13:43									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I honestly can't think of many. In any case, I'm not going to vote for a VP candidate whose posts are often so vague that they can be interpreted in so many ways, even if some of those interpretations make some, though little, sense.

Sounds like Greenspan ?

Like many others, I am not convinced and holding my vote till the last day.

	17-12-2002 14:01									#34
	Increase Your PM Length

Oops, I meant to write "I honestly can't think of any".

	17-12-2002 18:12									#35
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I'm new and I know my words may not mean much but in the case of VP I voted yes.
I have spent a number of hours reading over the constitution and also over peoples comments inside the forum, and I got the impression that panag was a figure that was willing to speak his mind in his own way, and I also got the feeling that there are people out there that respect him for that.
Many of the decisions that have to be made in the process of running a government are often cryptic and confusing and he simply adds a fresh way of thinking, which is a main job of any VP, helping broaden the Presidents frame of mind.
I have no doubt this vote of confidence will be close and I wish panag luck

	17-12-2002 18:46									#36
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Some people might want to drop the attitude the show here , its an outrightshame to see that some people post ludicrous things about someone else while they themselfs spend half the time posting nothing more then the same things you acuse panag of .

Shiber , a long time before many of you came to the game he arrived to the game , constantly asking for things like the the save , turnthreads , explore this , go there , we need this , we need that , we need a constitution , we need a supreme court , ........ yes it gets sometimes on your system , but in the end he always came true and most of the things panag has asked where "born" .

Vague posts , well many of us , including some people here do it all the time , so are we starting now to look at our selfs or just at one player who is in the end not so different from us ?

Before many of us post here they would do good to look at themselfs , many here have posted about subjects that where completely foolish .

To whom do we thank the senate , to whom do we thank so many little things ? yes panag has done a lot , both on and off site .

As for his experience , well he has it , just ask him .

As a last remark i would like to point out that many of you should forget the OT forum , because this is what this election starts to smell like in the end ; OT !

One of his motto's he has always trying to get across but forgotten by many is this ; Together
Everyone
Achieves
More

If you really want a great leader in case something goes wrong , well he has it all .

Last edited by SABRA on 17-12-2002 at 18:53

	17-12-2002 18:59									#37
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Pop in once a week and look what you get to see.

I am well aware that many people have strong feelings toward panag. My opinion is that it is truly a shame that he has not been given an oportunity to serve our nation before. Yes, there have been times that his posts have been confusing at first glance, but when you actually look at them, many show some great intelligence behind their intent. Just because someone does not have a total grasp of the english language is not reason to withhold them from office.

panag has had many ideas, and was in fact instrumental in my own organizational efforts during my term as VP. Both through PM and posts on the forum he helped me to come up with the ideas I used to organize and provide information while many others were more content simply complaining rather than providing input. I attempted to offer panag a judicial role at the time but was...persuaded...out of it. panag will do a fine job as VP, and I have full confidence that he will be able to take over if needed.

Shiber, you question his ability to attend chats. Would you have questioned the same if I was still active and chosen to run? I have never attended a full chat myself, is 'past experience' such a thing to judge on?

Togas, how can someone demonstrate the ability to lead without first having the chance?

Besides, we will all have that many more 'nice day' posts should he win.

	17-12-2002 19:12									#38
	Remove this text

hi

panag you are a shoe in, good luck, glad to see some new blood in our government.

have a nice day



...... Good luck panag, you may be a DIA cronie but I respect your willingness to participate, and hope that you can bring a breath of fresh air to our nation.

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(yes, I'm terrible I know...)

	17-12-2002 19:12									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Is this a promise that we can rely on Panag? Or are you going to come and disappear again without warning like you did for the last several months. And why the quotation marks around your answer? ----- As for my reasons for voting no, 1. Panag has never contributed to the game in any way, in my opinion. Yes, he may have contributed to the atmosphere and entertained us several times, but not to the actual game. 2. I CANNOT vote for someone who often doesn't have any idea what is going on in the game!! I've seen him posting about the war with Persia and how we should show Xerxes and get the Pyramids over a month after it was over. I've seen him posting countless times about things that have already been discussed over a week ago, sometimes in the same thread! A VP has to participate in the game, not come and go as Panag does. 3. Panag has never participated in any turnchats. As far as I know he doesn't even know how a turnchat looks like, or that these days turnchats can last for 8 hours. How can he commit to being able to hold turnchats if he has no past experience? I don't know about you, but his promise seems completely devoid of any actual backing, especially given his past patterns of behavior and posting in this game. 4. Take no personal offense in this Panag (like you unjustifiably have several times before), but I strongly doubt that you'd be able to understand the New Con, given your somewhat problematic language skills. Honestly, I have loads of reasons why not to vote for Panag which are not personal, but I feel that these are the major four, and they're certainly enough to convince me not to vote for this candidate.

hi ,

Shiber before you point a finger at someone here are some answers ;

1 ) He has never left for more then two days , and even those times can be counted on one hand .
2 ) The come and go as you mention it , is that because its you actually who comes and go's so often
3 ) Well he is one of those guys who never takes any offense , unlike yourself
4 ) "Language" , well shall we then also mention the fact that you seem to critice everyone when it comes to that , yet you would fail yourself when it comes to this subject from time to time .
5 ) At least panag has never posted any Private Messages in a public forum
6 ) "Behavior" , well *cough* mirrors are cheap these days Shiber
7 ) Turnchats , well before you ever knew what one looks like he used to host them
8 ) Before you make any more personal attack against panag or me or anyone else again , would you not look at yourself and ask "what have i ever done wrong"
9 ) Never has anyone put Shiber true the mud , yet why do you keep doing this over and over again to others ?
10 ) Why do you always want to have the last word , why do you want to be always such a negative person about others ?
11 ) Neither this site or this game are a place of hatred a blame , so why do you like to jump always on people's backs ?
12 ) Would you maybe like it if some people started to point out here some of your mishaps ?
13 ) Are you maybe trying ones more to get the focus away from the real subject and are you trying ones more to get the upper hand ?
14 ) Your reply is not needed , so save it , because it shall be the same as always , Shiber trying to get the upper hand , Shiber the person who never makes a single error , Shiber the perfect one .
15 ) Even with all of this , well as panag would say , "have a nice day"
16 ) Shiber you would do good to read and understand you signature ones in a while .


edit ; Added number 16

	17-12-2002 19:24									#40
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quote: Originally posted by SABRA hi , Shiber before you point a finger at someone here are some answers ; 1 ) He has never left for more then two days , and even those times can be counted on one hand . 2 ) The come and go as you mention it , is that because its you actually who comes and go's so often 3 ) Well he is one of those guys who never takes any offense , unlike yourself 4 ) "Language" , well shall we then also mention the fact that you seem to critice everyone when it comes to that , yet you would fail yourself when it comes to this subject from time to time . 5 ) At least panag has never posted any Private Messages in a public forum 6 ) "Behavior" , well *cough* mirrors are cheap these days Shiber 7 ) Turnchats , well before you ever knew what one looks like he used to host them 8 ) Before you make any more personal attack against panag or me or anyone else again , would you not look at yourself and ask "what have i ever done wrong" 9 ) Never has anyone put Shiber true the mud , yet why do you keep doing this over and over again to others ? 10 ) Why do you always want to have the last word , why do you want to be always such a negative person about others ? 11 ) Neither this site or this game are a place of hatred a blame , so why do you like to jump always on people's backs ? 12 ) Would you maybe like it if some people started to point out here some of your mishaps ? 13 ) Are you maybe trying ones more to get the focus away from the real subject and are you trying ones more to get the upper hand ? 14 ) Your reply is not needed , so save it , because it shall be the same as always , Shiber trying to get the upper hand , Shiber the person who never makes a single error , Shiber the perfect one . 15 ) Even with all of this , well as panag would say , "have a nice day"

I object to this. Sabra you had already made your point in the first post, at this point this is just going a little too far. To list 15 POINTS of finger pointing towards Shiber is intolerable, and definetely not needed, REGARDLESS of what Shiber's opinions of panag are. I agree that Shiber may have been overly harsh, but don't believe he is intentionally trying to attack panag personally.

To respond to a personal attack with even more personal attacks is not right at all. Two wrongs DO NOT make a right.

I denounce this argument as childish and petty, and not in the best interests of ANYONE here. I like Shiber, but I also like panag too. Neither of them deserve the accusations that have surfaced here. This argument should stop right now before it gets worse. I don't wish to see the end result of an accusation-fest, believe me, I watched the Mr.Orange/Reddawg case go down (like many others) and was greatly saddened that we lost two great citizens.

END THIS NOW!



Meshelic

/edit okay now you've added one more accusation to the list. Sabra, read your 11th accusation. Perhaps you should follow your own lead?

	17-12-2002 19:27									#41
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quote: Originally posted by SABRA Some people might want to drop the attitude the show here , its an outrightshame to see that some people post ludicrous things about someone else while they themselfs spend half the time posting nothing more then the same things you acuse panag of .

You've made a fundamental fallacy: this poll isn't about the voters, it's about the nominee. The fact that sometimes, some people do the same things that Panag does which irritate people or make them think less of Panag does not excuse Panag's behavior; the fact that others may be independable is not an excuse to forget the fact that Panag is independable; and so on.
When you cast your vote for prime minister / president in your own country and you hear that a certain candidate is, for example, involved in corruption, you don't think to yourself "hey, I touched dirty money once myself so it's OK or excusable", you think to yourself "I may be dirty but I want a leader that is clean!" and give your vote to the other nominee.
Besides, even if this plea was relevant, it's completely baseless. Noone here behaves like Panag does. I'd like to see you try to prove otherwise.

quote: Shiber , a long time before many of you came to the game he arrived to the game , constantly asking for things like the the save , turnthreads , explore this , go there , we need this , we need that , we need a constitution , we need a supreme court , ........ yes it gets sometimes on your system , but in the end he always came true and most of the things panag has asked where "born" .

Give one example of one way that Panag has contributed to the game. Just one.

quote: Vague posts , well many of us , including some people here do it all the time , so are we starting now to look at our selfs or just at one player who is in the end not so different from us ?

Noone in here speaks as vaguely as Panag does, not even you. I have trouble even reading (let alone understanding) his posts, and I find that even if I try to understand them, about 40% of his posts remain a complete mystery to me even after I've read them for three or four times. Apparently I'm not the only one.
I'm sorry, but one of the most basic traits that a public servant, especially one so high-ranked as the Vice President has to have is the ability to speak clearly.
So far all public servants were required and have in fact demonstrated above-average language skills, and some, such as Togas, Arnelos and others, have spoken very impressively about issues.
I think the same job requirements apply on Panag. He is not required to hold speeches, but at least he needs to be understood when writing reports or during turnchats.

quote: Before many of us post here they would do good to look at themselfs , many here have posted about subjects that where completely foolish .

Not every one here makes sense, has insights or contributes to the game in any way, though everyone is more than welcome. However, if one runs for a public office he must prove that he is fit for the job.
So far, everyone who was elected to a public office was a citizen who has greatly contributed to this game even before he was elected. Panag is also required to prove to us that he is capable. So far he hasn't.
Anyway, I've already explained why the behaviour of some of the voters is irrelevant to this discussion. Let's move on.

quote: To whom do we thank the senate , to whom do we thank so many little things ? yes panag has done a lot , both on and off site .

So Panag is responsible for the creation of the Senate? No, SABRA. The people who participate, not just drop in and out randomly, are to thank for the Senate. The people in the NewCon Convention who worked so hard on this fine papaer are to thank for the system. The people who posted, who protested, who suggested, who participated, are to thank for the system.
Don't try to make Panag into something that he isn't. He is not "to thank" for the Senate. I don't think posts like "no, the court is fine to control the budget, ....." are contributive, and I certainly don't thank Panag for clogging up threads with such vague announcements.

quote: As for his experience , well he has it , just ask him .

Panag has experience in running a turnchat? AFAIK, and according to what I've heard from others, Panag has never even participated in a single turnchat. If so, your remark is an outright lie - he cannot have the experience necessary to serve as VP if he has never even seen a turnchat, let alone took part in one.
I've got all the reasons in the world to doubt Panag's ability to control a turnchat, and certainly not a full turnchat (one that, nowadays, can last for 8 hours!!).

quote: As a last remark i would like to point out that many of you should forget the OT forum , because this is what this election starts to smell like in the end ; OT !

Huh?
Sorry, I don't quite follow.

quote: One of his motto's he has always trying to get across but forgotten by many is this ; Together Everyone Achieves More

That's just a blank slogan. What's your point?

quote: If you really want a great leader in case something goes wrong , well he has it all .

Even if he is elected, he will be impeached as soon as possible after he screws up his first turnchat.
I'm saying that because I have no faith in Panag whatsoever. I want a VP that I can trust, a person that I can depend on, and Panag simply isn't the ticket.

	17-12-2002 19:36									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic I object to this. Sabra you had already made your point in the first post, at this point this is just going a little too far. To list 15 POINTS of finger pointing towards Shiber is intolerable, and definetely not needed, REGARDLESS of what Shiber's opinions of panag are. To respond to a personal attack with even more personal attacks is not right at all. Two wrongs DO NOT make a right. I denounce this argument as childish and petty, and not in the best interests of ANYONE here. I like Shiber, but I also like panag too. Neither of them deserve the accusations that have surfaced here. This argument should stop right now before it gets worse. I don't wish to see the end result of an accusation-fest, believe me, I watched the Mr.Orange/Reddawg case go down (like many others) and was greatly saddened that we lost two great citizens. END THIS NOW! Meshelic

Meshelic , a long time ago , before you where born in that nice house on palace street some things happend .
Things that no-one wants to talk about , but when you open a can that you know contains worms , well dont expect it to be pleasant .
Its a given fact that some people like to attack others in whatever way they can without giving a dime about the outcome .
If shiber would not have posted his unpleasant personal (by no means at all neutral post) then i would have not posted .
However i am willing to drop it , in turn i expect that Shiber does the same not only in this thread but in all threads .
Meshelic (and fellow citizens) there is a great difference between facts and so-called accusations there is a mile of difference , Shiber does seems to know that difference . Aldo he has promised many times he would never again attack anyone ever again .

	17-12-2002 19:44									#43
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx My opinion is that it is truly a shame that he has not been given an oportunity to serve our nation before.

I wouldn't mind if Panag would serve in a public position, should he be elected. In fact, I'd most likely encourage it.
However, one who hasn't publicly proven himself yet should not go into an office so high-ranked as the VP's office. If he wants to participate in the government, he should try for a job with less responsibility first.

To elaborate on this subject I'd like to remind you of Jonny. He ran I-don't-know-how-many-times for the position of Minister of Imperial Expansion and finally got elected for the last term that this office existed. By then REXing was over and he had very little work to do.
However, Jonny had managed to prove himself in other ways before he ran to office, while he was running to office several times, while he was in office and afterwards. He was full of good ideas and he shared them with the community and made a good impression (at least on me). Panag has the same chances to impress people that Jonny had, yet he did not use these chances as far as I've noticed. Why should he be given favorable conditions? Why should he be given a high-ranked public office just so he could "prove himself" (which is a precedence, I'm sure)?

quote: Shiber, you question his ability to attend chats. Would you have questioned the same if I was still active and chosen to run?

Absolutely. However, since in the past you have demonstrated great skills and made a really good impression on me, I'd be more inclined to vote for you than I am inclined to vote for Panag.

	17-12-2002 19:48									#44
	Remove this text

Double Post

	17-12-2002 19:53									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I wouldn't mind if Panag would serve in a public position, should he be elected. In fact, I'd most likely encourage it. However, one who hasn't publicly proven himself yet should not go into an office so high-ranked as the VP's office. If he wants to participate in the government, he should try for a job with less responsibility first. To elaborate on this subject I'd like to remind you of Jonny. He ran I-don't-know-how-many-times for the position of Minister of Imperial Expansion and finally got elected for the last term that this office existed. By then REXing was over and he had very little work to do. However, Jonny had managed to prove himself in other ways before he ran to office, while he was running to office several times, while he was in office and afterwards. He was full of good ideas and he shared them with the community and made a good impression (at least on me). Panag has the same chances to impress people that Jonny had, yet he did not use these chances as far as I've noticed. Why should he be given favorable conditions? Why should he be given a high-ranked public office just so he could "prove himself" (which is a precedence, I'm sure)? Absolutely. However, since in the past you have demonstrated great skills and made a really good impression on me, I'd be more inclined to vote for you than I am inclined to vote for Panag.

You still dont know when to stop do you ? You really dont seem to understand anything do you ?

Maybe its because you yourself are after a job ?
And then to think that panag presented you several times for a job , ........
Panag you really are fool to say that he shall be a good and responsable person , some of the posters here are younger then 12 and they know better .

	17-12-2002 19:55									#46
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sheesh.
I'm not going to reply to such childish arguments. The poll will end soon, Panag will still be out of office, this thread will die.
I rest my case. However, you SABRA can go on if you'd like.

Meshelic, many thanks for defending me against SABRA's accusations but there's really no need. I feel that everyone who is in his right mind can read SABRA's posts and realize that such accusations are not only false and sometimes undemocratic, but intolerable, and that this argument has no place in a fine forum such as this. I know SABRA would stop if I just stopped answering back to his attacks, so I intend to do just that.

Edit: I'm sorry for this, but I need to clarify that I wrote my last two posts before I read Meshelic's post. They're very long, as you can see, and Meshelic must have "cross-posted" while I was writing my posts.

	17-12-2002 20:00									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Sheesh. I'm not going to reply to such childish arguments. The poll will end soon, Panag will still be out of office, this thread will die. I rest my case. However, you SABRA can go on if you'd like. Meshelic, many thanks for defending me against SABRA's accusations but there's really no need. I feel that everyone who is in his right mind can read SABRA's posts and realize that such accusations are not only false and sometimes undemocratic, but intolerable, and that this argument has no place in a fine forum such as this. I know SABRA would stop if I just stopped answering back to his attacks, so I intend to do just that.

But like always you must have the last word , you just simply cant stand it that someone might be better then you or might be right .
In the end your only goal is to turn as many people as you can can against each other , preferably against panag . If you find certain things not tolerable or democratical then dont post them yourself . Fine forum ? yes indeed until you posted your worms .
And that shall be my last post here .

	17-12-2002 20:31									#48
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Shiber, I rarely disagree with you (hmm... I said the same in another thread, recently... ), and I can understand your point. Panag's sense of humor is... how can I say... very... hmm... very panagian , sometimes. Moreover, I agree that he's a little vague many, many times...

However, one of the better things in this game is our "biodiversity" . Panag is one of our specimens, as all of us. With his own style. I like him.
He deserves a try, IMHO

Note:

quote: Originally posted by SABRA ...And that shall be my last post here .

Is this a promise?

	17-12-2002 20:59									#49
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hi ,



intresting , .......

have a nice day

	17-12-2002 21:24									#50
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Just in case anybody asks - I did vote yes after some hesitation (about 30 seconds from my first post). I am willing to give anyone a chance, particularly as so few were willing to do the job in the first place.

GK

	17-12-2002 21:49									#51
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Togas, how can someone demonstrate the ability to lead without first having the chance?

In a deputy role, RA role, or other advisory role would be a start.

The VP is a serious job. Most of our past Presidents have had some issue come up during their term where their VP has had to take over. We should approve or dissaprove the candidate based on one issue alone:

"Would he be an appropriate President?"

This is not about charity or giving a long time member his "chance." This is not about personalities or quirks. If you vote "yes" then you want this nominee to be your President if and when something happen to Arnelos.

--Togas

	17-12-2002 22:32									#52
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Couldn't have put it better myself.

	17-12-2002 22:39									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Togas In a deputy role, RA role, or other advisory role would be a start. The VP is a serious job. Most of our past Presidents have had some issue come up during their term where their VP has had to take over. We should approve or dissaprove the candidate based on one issue alone: "Would he be an appropriate President?" This is not about charity or giving a long time member his "chance." This is not about personalities or quirks. If you vote "yes" then you want this nominee to be your President if and when something happen to Arnelos. --Togas

There's no charity involved. I voted yes, and I meant it... . Arnelos invited Panag, Panag accepted and we are voting and discussing. If this poll fails, Arnelos will nominate someone else. Panag likes to do the things in his own way (seems weird for many people, but not for me), and, like everybody here, will do his best. Exactly like me or you, Togas (well, this isn't true: you are experienced and proved yourself in the office. I'm still green, innocent and virginal. ).

Peace, brother...Give Panag a chance!

	17-12-2002 22:52									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Aro Peace, brother...Give Panag a chance!

I always liked your sense of humor Aro.

	17-12-2002 23:10									#55
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Many people should be reminded that they are not asked here to choose a VP; the President chooses the VP. The Senate is only required to approve the Presidents choice. On what ground should this approval be made ? Since the qualities and talents of the VP are left to the President, the Senate can only object on the basis of proven misconduct in the most sensible fields such as playing ahead, or breaking the law.

It would be strange that the first decision made (the choice of the VP) by a new President be overruled for managerial reasons; but it is not stupid to offer to the Senate a veto, if for instance the applicant was caught playing ahead X terms before, facts which could not be known by the President.

So, if the VP choosen by Arnelos has never acted against the game, he must be approved. If you feel that the VP has never acted positively for the game, it is too bad for Arnelos : he will have to overcome the supposed weakness of his VP.

From what I have seen from Arnelos in action, I am quite confident that he will monitor closely and efficiently a green VP.

	18-12-2002 00:27									#56
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I don't have a clue at all what Sabra meant by that "meshelic when you were born in a nice palace house" statement, but I'll let it drop.

I was about to post a quarter-page of responses, but that would have been pointless and fuel for the fire.

I just want to see this end. I'm not new to these kind of "negotiations" at all, and Sabra I resent some of the things you said directed at Shiber. I will not apologize for Shiber either. If he wants to he can, if he doesn't want to: well that's his right and he is simply stating more obviously what many other people are feeling.

Why else would the poll up top have so many "no" votes? Shiber couldn't possibly have voted nay 13 times....

Ok I'm done. Move along folks, there's nothing more to see here.

	18-12-2002 00:30									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Many people should be reminded that they are not asked here to choose a VP; the President chooses the VP. The Senate is only required to approve the Presidents choice. On what ground should this approval be made ? Since the qualities and talents of the VP are left to the President, the Senate can only object on the basis of proven misconduct in the most sensible fields such as playing ahead, or breaking the law. It would be strange that the first decision made (the choice of the VP) by a new President be overruled for managerial reasons; but it is not stupid to offer to the Senate a veto, if for instance the applicant was caught playing ahead X terms before, facts which could not be known by the President. So, if the VP choosen by Arnelos has never acted against the game, he must be approved. If you feel that the VP has never acted positively for the game, it is too bad for Arnelos : he will have to overcome the supposed weakness of his VP. From what I have seen from Arnelos in action, I am quite confident that he will monitor closely and efficiently a green VP.

Interestingly, I actually don't agree with your argument here (yeah, I know that doesn't help me, but that's beside the point). I think the Senate is perfectly within its rights to oppose a Vice Presidential choice or my Court appointments for political reasons. In either case (Court nominees or Vice Presidential nominees), if a nominee fails, I just forward another one and see if the Senate is willing to accept that one. I'll grant that this has the potential to get out of control if the Senate kills every single nominee I send them, but I find that possibility unlikely.

	18-12-2002 00:43									#58
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WOW

What a ride.


I think I'm gonna it on this here bench for a while.

Mss

	18-12-2002 01:03									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic Shiber couldn't possibly have voted nay 13 times....

Good. That's exactly what I want you all to think.

* Shiber smiles mysteriously and then disappears into the shadows, laughing frantically. A thud followed by an obscene curse is heard out of the shadows a moment later, when Shiber, who was until a moment ago completely concentrated on laughing frantically and looking mysterious, bumps into the trunk of a tree that stood unseen inside the shadows.

Edit: fixed a typo. I misspelled obscene. Oh, the horror!!

	18-12-2002 01:08									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Good. That's exactly what I want you all to think. * Shiber smiles mysteriously and then disappears into the shadows, laughing frantically. A thud followed by an obsene curse is heard out of the shadows a moment later, when Shiber, who was until a moment ago completely concentrated on laughing frantically and looking mysterious, bumps into the trunk of a tree that stood unseen inside the shadows.

hi ,

héhéh

have a nice day

panag > continues to plant trees for clean air