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Confirm panag as Vice President?
This poll is closed. |
| Yes |
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22 |
51.16% |
| No |
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14 |
32.56% |
| Abstain |
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7 |
16.28% |
| Total: |
43 voters |
100% |
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:24
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It is clear that we (I don't mean all of us, just the "we" that includes me) are not just uncertain that panag will be able to fill the job, but that we are downright annoyed at his confirmation as VP, and we are afraid of great problems ahead.
Yes, you may say "well that's your own opinion, MWIA, and if you were in the majority then it would be seriously considered, but as it stands panag was confirmed by a majority voting in this poll". Yes he was. But only since he was presented to us as the sole option. If indeed he was the only option, then ask yourself why did so many reject his confirmation, more people than most if not all confirmations/one person elections in the history of our game?
IIRC at least one who was approached privately about being VP and declined the nomination came out and said he would now accept the nomination if panag was the final nominee chosen. Why? It's not just me and Shiber - panag is not seen to be fit to be VP at this time by a large number of us voting here, and thus likely by more who did not vote. This demonstrates a barrier to the game, as we (again, some of us) are not willing to rely on panag based on what we have seen of him so far. If I was President or a Minister right now I would feel forced into making sure that all responsibilities were handled by the elected Executive, as there would be no way I could leave the responsibility up to someone who some citizens distrust so much. Hell, there's at least one poster who in this thread said that our chosen VP is back on his ignore list! Make that two - he remains on mine.
This may all be nice and legal by that document, but previously we had at the very least the chance of having a real contested election for VP. Never mind the fact that throughout most of our game there has tended to be only one person who actually runs, here we have been given one candidate only, no write-in option, and it is my firm belief that if we had any other option but "panag or nuthin'", there would be a distinctly different result here. I have no complaints about the way the system was followed - what aggravates me more and more often here is the system itself.
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:24
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hi ,
well if some people have a problem , why dont they say so , ......
or maybe some people would like to make a problem , .....
strange how its allways the same people who expect problems ahead , problems those same people seem to cause by the way , ......
so what do you want , to hear panag say NO , let some-one else take the job , ......
but lets talk seriously then , lets talk how many people bring up negative talk about others just because some people dont seem to agry to the OT threads , ......
impeachment for what reason , maybe some others need to be impeached , .....
man , oh man , what a deal about a place in the civ3demo game , ..... thats what its all about , a game , where people come together and have fun , where people try to build something , but oh no , this and this person are not allowed , because this and that person have done this or that , or because they have this or that avatar , or they have this and this opinion , or they have this or that color of skin , or they have this or that religious belief , or they have this or that computer , or they love this or that comp progam , ...... etc , ..... etc , ....
duh , thats just plain old BS with capital letters and a bunch of lame excuses , ......
oh yeah , since some people cant read some things , ....
the " , ......" means , either a pauze or open to comment or unfinished please insert own views
how is one viewed "fit" to hold a job , off course when one is constantly having the legs from his or her chair being cut its a bit hard to do a job , .....  
when the president thought of panag as his vp he knew what he did , so is he therefore also incompetend , or any of the other members of government who sayed yes , ......
and what did panag ask the president to do , well panag asked " only after a vote " , ......
and why on earth is it that some allways have to explain everything over and over again in the uttermost little detail about this or that why , while others get practically away with everything , ........
oh yeah , what is wrong with wishing some one or everyone a "happy day" or saying "hi" , well for some it seems it gives reason to attack a person with such lewd and rude language that it makes you sick , ......
well , no matter what ,
"have a nice day" 
and last but not least ; this message does not need to be altered over and over again , ... read "edit" , .....
so that one can say later " i did not say that , look "
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by panag
but lets talk seriously then , lets talk how many people bring up negative talk about others just because some people dont seem to agry to the OT threads , ......
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quote:
man , oh man , what a deal about a place in the civ3demo game , ..... thats what its all about , a game , where people come together and have fun , where people try to build something , but oh no , this and this person are not allowed , because this and that person have done this or that , or because they have this or that avatar , or they have this and this opinion , or they have this or that color of skin , or they have this or that religious belief , or they have this or that computer , or they love this or that comp progam , ...... etc , ..... etc , ....
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Get over it man. People aren't voting against you because of some OT thread, or because you're Jewish, or because you support Sharon or because your skin is whichever color that it is. Most of us opposers don't even dislike you personally. We just see you as unfit for the job.
I would like to add that I for one don't take kindly when people see me in such low regard that they think that my judgement in a crucial poll was affected by what avatar the candidate was using. It also saddens me that in a Democratic system, a certain candidate rejects some people's votes and treats them with such contempt over a bunch of petty excuses and false accusations.
In response to all those saying that Panag should be impeached now, I would like to say that this would be premature and utterly wrong. There's no legal backing to that, so no matter how disastrous (note the sarcasm please) you think Panag's effect on the game would be, you'll just be grasping at straws if you try to impeach him at this point.
I for one intend to wait until Arnelos announces that due to some reasons he will not be able to hold a turnchat and asks Panag to do it instead. If such an event will not take place and Arnelos will run every turnchat this term then us opposers have nothing to worry about because Panag's appointment would be meaningless to the game.
However, if such an event will occur and Panag will have to run a turnchat all by himself then, as a person who voted Nay in this poll, I am certain that there will be more than enough reasons to impeach him after he proves that he is incapable of holding a complicated turnchat that can last for nearly 10 hours, follow orders correctly, use proper judgement, act according to constitution and provide the necessary reports after the chat is concluded.
To conclude, I am very much in favor of letting Panag actually do his job before we further judge him. This is why I suggested during the last turnchat that President Arnelos asks Panag to play Turn 1 of that turnchat, so that Panag can provide us all with an example, whether positive or negative, of how he would act in case he is really called into duty.
However, I was quickly silenced by Panag and blamed for trying to launch a personal attack against him. Up until this moment it has not become clear to me why a perfectly reasonable request would be met with such resistance, and some very ugly words via private messages from the VP.
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UnOrthOdOx
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Hello....
Jun 2002
time: 22:24
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If panag does not wish to run a turnchat by himself, it is perfectly within his rights to hold turnTHREADS instead. That is the President's decision, and panag can choose so if he needs to take over.
Why are you so fixated on 'running a chat'? panag will only be required to play the game and follow orders, not run a chat solo. It is time to let this go. There are strong personal feelings behind both sides of this, but none of that have much to do with the demo-game IMO.
I could think of any number of ways for someone to sabotage that chat if they so chose, in fact, even if they only wished to prove panag 'couldn't' do it, and I myself would have refused if someone had asked similar of me as VP. Remember, I ran the position, and the presidency just fine without EVER HOLDING A SINGLE CHAT.
MrWIA,
It is no secret that I have fully supported you in all your endeavors (sp). In all the time I have known you, I have learned that your first priority is to keep the game moving, to keep distraction away from the running of the game. I ask you now, how is this continued arguement going to persue that goal? You feel strongly on this issue, that is good, we all need conviction. However, you have lost the arguement according to the poll, it is time to let it go and continue your work in helping the game proceed instead of creating this further distraction.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:24
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Although the president may choose to have either a turnchat or a turnthread, I think that running a turnthread when there's a war going on is simply irresponsible. During wars, feedback from the ministers and other chat participants is crucial for proper decision-making, especially when several unexpected events may happen every turn ("No plan survives first contact with the enemy").
At our current rate of progress it appears that the current war will last for most, if not all of the 7th term. IMHO, although the VP may hold turnthreads instead of turnchats, it is important that he is able to hold turnchats as well.
In any case, I believe that Panag will not be able to carry out a satisfactory turnchat or turnthread, and that if he'll ever get the chance to do so, the public will be mad at him enough for not following orders correctly, for using bad judgement or for doing something unconstitutional that he'll most likely be impeached. This is my opinion, and it is based on my previous experience with Panag and my knowledge of his character.
Anyway, all of this doesn't matter right. It's just speculations on the future and repeating things that I've already said. The point is that any motion to impeach Panag right now would be premature because he hasn't even had a chance to prove himself, for good or for bad.
As for sabotaging a turnchat, that would be pointless for anyone trying to damage Panag's reputation. If someone launched attacks against the ministers that prevented them from giving their orders or showing up for the chat then noone could blame the president or VP for this. If the IRC network was taken down then noone could blame the president or VP for this. If the chat room was flooded then it would be obvious that this was an act of saboteur, and certainly not the president's/VP's fault. I can think of a number of other ways to sabotage a chat (though I assure you that I have not put any thought into this until though), but none of these methods could cause the public to point their blaming fingers at whoever was running the chat.
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
Although the president may choose to have either a turnchat or a turnthread, I think that running a turnthread when there's a war going on is simply irresponsible. During wars, feedback from the ministers and other chat participants is crucial for proper decision-making, especially when several unexpected events may happen every turn ("No plan survives first contact with the enemy").
At our current rate of progress it appears that the current war will last for most, if not all of the 7th term. IMHO, although the VP may hold turnthreads instead of turnchats, it is important that he is able to hold turnchats as well.
In any case, I believe that Panag will not be able to carry out a satisfactory turnchat or turnthread, and that if he'll ever get the chance to do so, the public will be mad at him enough for not following orders correctly, for using bad judgement or for doing something unconstitutional that he'll most likely be impeached. This is my opinion, and it is based on my previous experience with Panag and my knowledge of his character.
Anyway, all of this doesn't matter right. It's just speculations on the future and repeating things that I've already said. The point is that any motion to impeach Panag right now would be premature because he hasn't even had a chance to prove himself, for good or for bad.
As for sabotaging a turnchat, that would be pointless for anyone trying to damage Panag's reputation. If someone launched attacks against the ministers that prevented them from giving their orders or showing up for the chat then noone could blame the president or VP for this. If the IRC network was taken down then noone could blame the president or VP for this. If the chat room was flooded then it would be obvious that this was an act of saboteur, and certainly not the president's/VP's fault. I can think of a number of other ways to sabotage a chat (though I assure you that I have not put any thought into this until though), but none of these methods could cause the public to point their blaming fingers at whoever was running the chat. |
hi ,
you just cant give up can ya , .......
and while we are talking about sabotage , man you have nerve , .......
why dont you run for prez and each and every other post there is and leave some people alone , they only want to play a game afterall you know , or have you completely forgotten that that is whats all about , a game , .......
a game where people would like to have fun , not reading messages in every single thread about your discontent with some people , .......
this start to get not only very annoying but also very boring , or are you maybe trying to stop the game , are you maybe trying to sabotage it , ..... because you are doing a darn fine job on that , ......
now how many times more does it have to be asked , stop it and drop it , point .
have a nice day
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
I think that we've all grown very tired of this discussion. Now that the poll is closed, and after 7 pages of posts, I think it's time to close this thread.
I'll PM Arnelos about this and hope that he'll agree with me on this. Panag, you can post your reply to this now, if you'd like to, so that you won't have to rant about how I always need to have the last word after this thread is closed. |
hi ,
why , are you afraid that some people shall disagree with you , .......
oh yeah , dont forget to add some other threads in that PM aswell , they deserve to be closed aswell , .......
bye
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
As long as I know where we stand. So I am irresponsible for holding turnthreads during the course of the first war of France. Very well, I accept your criticism,
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Just as long as you know that I hold you in very high regard, and I find that you are one of the people who have contributed the most to this game, among with other great names.
Holding a turnthread during the second French war was inappropriate IMHO, but I didn't complain because it didn't matter much - we were attacking France with overwhelming force, and whatever advantage a turnchat would have given our forces, it was definitely not necessary.
However, you must remember MWIA's turnthread. It was done during the first French war, which was naturally much more difficult, and some mistakes were made; mistakes which I think could have been prevented if the turns were played in the form of a turnchat instead. That was when I became convinced that turnthreads are inappropriate during wars and I haven't changed my mind since.
Thankfully though, that was MWIA's only mistake during his term, and to be honest, I enjoyed his term more than I enjoyed any other term (and that ain't flattery!). His reports were also extraordinary, and so were the chats (especially during the war with Persia)!
quote:
... but it does not deny the fact that it CAN be done. Yes, there were many who were not entirely happy with there being no chats at the time, but it can be done effectively. If anything, I would say that threads have a higher degree of using 'national emergencies' instead. The last situation a fine example. Would Aggie have been more likely to stop had there been no one in the chat telling him what to do? People who were not the proper authority to be making that decision? I know I certainly halted play during the war on France when Germany and Persia sign pacts with Joan. Would I have done the same if people were telling me to play on? I don't know...
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You certainly have a point there - turnthreads have their advantages. However, I still think that during wars, the advantages that turnchats provide far exceed those that turnthreads provide. I don't remember whether you've been to the last turnchat, but I got the impression that the last few turns wouldn't have gone as great if these turns were played in the form of a turnthread.
Of course that's my opinion. It is by no means a clear and solid conclusion, just the opinion that I hold, based mostly on the arguments that I have provided.
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UnOrthOdOx
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Hello....
Jun 2002
time: 22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
Just as long as you know that I hold you in very high regard, and I find that you are one of the people who have contributed the most to this game, among with other great names.
Holding a turnthread during the second French war was inappropriate IMHO, but I didn't complain because it didn't matter much - we were attacking France with overwhelming force, and whatever advantage a turnchat would have given our forces, it was definitely not necessary. |
I take no offense at open criticism.
quote:
However, you must remember MWIA's turnthread. It was done during the first French war, which was naturally much more difficult, and some mistakes were made; mistakes which I think could have been prevented if the turns were played in the form of a turnchat instead. That was when I became convinced that turnthreads are inappropriate during wars and I haven't changed my mind since.
Thankfully though, that was MWIA's only mistake during his term, and to be honest, I enjoyed his term more than I enjoyed any other term (and that ain't flattery!). His reports were also extraordinary, and so were the chats (especially during the war with Persia)! |
Here is where we disagree. I do not fault the threads as being the cause of the confusion. I fault the orders submitted. It would have been no different/is no different when a minister is absent from a chat. In all honesty, I should have just sacked up and done that Turnthread so that what had been discussed was carried out and allowed MrWIA to have a week to get back into things. It was a widely talked on issue that was forgotten and it was not placed in any orders nor was MrWIA notified of it prior to the thread being carried out, nothing to do with the way threads work.
I personally see chats as more a complication of the process than anything else. They are FUN, and that is their purpose IMO. If anything I feel they confuse the process and have the potential to cause more confusion and erronious errors than a well planned thread. Not to mention they take a long time and schedules are difficlut to coordinate. Again, I think they are there for the public more than the carrying out of orders in the proper fashion.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:24
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UnOrthO, we must have cross-posted, so here's my reply to your message:
The famous verse, "no plan survives first contact with the enemy", describes just my feelings towards holding turnthreads during wars.
I agree that turnchats can often make things more complicated. Furthermore, I agree that during peace times, their only purpose is for fun. However, IMHO, during wars the chat serves as an important tool in the hands of the president and the SMC, should the latter be present. The chatroom serves as a brainstorming group, and from my experience helps very much. I remember several times when we were facing a certain problem, especially during the war vs. Persia, and one of the chatters came up with a creative solution to the problem. I credit the fact that we defeated Persia's initial attacks so well only to the facts that we had a great and open-minded president, a creative SMC and a very good bunch in the chats.
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adaMada
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"The Iron" Stadium, Ubergorsk, Apolytonia (C3DG)
Mar 2000
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteBandit
This is kind of just getting out of hand. While I do agree with certain arguments, this is almost getting childish. Let's end it. There's really nothing that we can do. Only time will really tell what happens to panag and if he'll be able to rise to our expectations. Until then, these personal barbs at each other are really embarassing to our game.
Neither of you needs to get the last word in. End it now please. Before we lose more respect for either of you or worse, someone leaves the game.
Thanks. |
I've gotta agree with WhiteBandit here (no big shocker  ).
I voted on this poll, though I don't plan to say how I voted in public -- I don't want to be lumped with either side of the fight. I will say this, however: I like Panag and I like Shiber (Honestly, I've yet to meet anyone I don't like in this demogame). I hear both side's points (and indeed, they are good points), and I agree with a little of each.
Getting that out of the way, here are one or two specific comments and requests that I do have. These are from a citizen of the game who'd like to see it continue beyond this term, and perhaps even avoid a little civil war :
- Panag: I don't think anyone's attacking you for being Jewish, or for being pro-israeli. We have many Israeil members on Apolyton, and I don't see any evidence of racism against them within the Demogame. Considering one of your primary attackers is Shiber, who is Israeli, I’m not sure that holds much water .
- Panag's detractors: I agree with Shiber on one specific point -- impeachment is not an option at this time.
- Shiber AND Panag: I understand you guys don't like each other. That's something I've known for quite some time, and I believe it's been well established to all here . Having said that, we must have a stable government this term. You two are going to have to at least find a way of ignoring each other, if not tolerating. We can't have little fights breaking out all over the game
- Panag and Arnelos: It might not be a bad idea for Panag to try out a turn of a chat sometime. Everyone has a ton of trouble their first time (I've been there for several first times now ), and I know (were I VP) I'd appreciate the chance to give the system a shot with Arnelos available to help. Honestly, it's not a very bad idea -- and if Panag does mess up a bit, it would not be grounds for any attack on him. Like I've said, everyone messes up their first time
- Panag's detractors: Please don't suggest things (such as taking on a turnchat) purely as a test for Panag. If Panag/Arnelos feel they need to practice a bit -- which would be very natural for ANY VP -- then they for the reasons I've pointed out above – and if anything goes wrong, it’s nothing against Panag. Reminding/suggesting is never bad of course, but if Arnelos/Panag don't want to accept, no need to force the issue .
- All: Happy holiday season (or not, depending on your believes), and have a nice day .
-- adaMada
EDIT: I've mixed feelings on closing this thread. On one hand, I really am getting tired of it taking up front page space. On the other, I've got a feeling that the same old fights will wind up appearing again, and at least this gives them one central location... On second thought, I'd probably close it -- I'd like to see both sides reach some sort of mutual agreement to ignore each other, but I doubt it'll happen, so...
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23-12-2002 06:13
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