16-12-2002 23:30									#1
	Report on the Valley of Cows and other things Got spare money?

My lord Togas, this is the Report that I had long Promiced about the new lands that we have surveyed. My sons have returned and I offer this Report to you and our Great People.

THe Valley of Cow is a Wonderous Place, with two Herds of Cows, Mountains to mine and Grassland to Farm. THis Valley, and the Mountains, have several Rivers that would be used for purposes of Trade and Irrigation. The proposed Site of the New City, has a River running by it, so the City could have a high growth potential. The only problem with establishing a New City there, would be the ardous work needed to build a proper Road to it though the Mountains.

[EDIT][OOC] are these too big now? I can reduce them and just reload into my FTP.
[/OOC][/Edit]



Along with that I present to you, our most vaunted Leader, some possible plans for future Sites for the Expansion of our Empire. These are General Plans, and some will depend on what we will find in the wilderness. The final desision will, of course, be up to you, our most Noble one.

Plan 1


This plan uses the most for the current space, but provides the least number of Cities.

Plan 2


In this Plan, we can arrainge 5 New Cities. There would be some unused Territory, but that is Desert anyways. But one of the New Sites is on the Coast and we could possibly build a few boats and Explore from there.

Plan 3


THis plan would have a slight overlap in Madrid and one of the proposed Sites. This also depends on the actual Coastal Shoreline that is to The NE of Madrid.

These are the proposals for our first wave of expansion into our rightful place in this world.

Senor Iwana Eta Tamali

Last edited by E_T on 17-12-2002 at 02:27

	16-12-2002 23:43									#2
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I humbly thank Senor Dejon, for Rescuing my Sons form a Bear Attack, on the ourskirts of Madrid. They where about to overwhelmed by this Gigantic Beast, when he had come to their Rescue. It it wasn't for his timely intervention, I would have never heard from them again and would not be able to provide my promiced Report to His Most Exaulted Leaded. I would have been most humbly Embarrased before this Court.

I would please ask, that he be given a special commendation for saving my sons.

[ooc] Dejon has provided me with some of his FTP space, for these maps, thank you.[/ooc]

Senor Iwana Eta Tamali

	17-12-2002 00:13									#3
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Cattle valley is most assuredly a wonderful place for future settlement Senor Tamali. Also, the suggestion for another settlement along the coastline, southeast of the recently discovered silks, is very appealing. All other possibilities require more exploration, I believe.

	17-12-2002 00:57									#4
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I would advise us to place our future cities closer together at the beginning, understanding that there will be overlap of radii. Until the invention of sanitation, which will take a long time IMHO, it is to our benifit to have them closser, for devensive and production reasons.

	17-12-2002 01:21									#5
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Senor Iwana Eta Tamali,

I find your plans very interesting. As Chief Architect, I prefer the numbers 2 or 3. We need a powerful coastal city to build a Great Invention, which plans are taking shape in my mind : A Lighthouse. This will help our first ships to better sail and cross the unknown seas.

	17-12-2002 01:26									#6
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[OOC]

I can see the Defensive reasoning, but not the production. Unless you are concidering Corruption/Waste? If so, that should be no problem as we are a Commercial Civ and all of our Cities currently have the Equivalant of a Courthouse in each (for Corruption/Waste reasons)

In the Future, if we wish to built Courthouses, it will be as if we are building Police Stations. And Later, with actual Police Stations, it will be like having Super Police Stations.

This does NOT account for WLTD, which will act (for Waste Only) as the next higher level.

As for OCN (Optimal City Number), our Modified OCN is currently 32, where as all Non-Commercial Civs are at a 25.

I suggest everybody reading the Corruption Thread that Alexman has up (i'll provice a link later). It is very Informative.

[/OOC]
E_T

	17-12-2002 01:41									#7
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A very good report, Señor Tamali

The siting of City #2 in Cow Valley seems most appropriate. However, there are some questions concerning the placement of City #3 in the jungles to our northwest that are best raised here due to the clarity of your graphics.

First, do we want the silks as quickly as possible?
Locating City #3 per the first two examples would incorporate the silks in our initial 9-tile city radius and would make them more readily defendable by that city by being on the same side of the river. Also, this location doesn't overlook the grassland peeking out from under the fog in its initial radius either.

or

Secondly, do we want to focus on defense and versatility?
Locating City #3 per the third example would provide the benefit of the Rio Tajo's defense bonus against attacks from coming from the north. It also does not overlook the grassland peeking out from the fog, but it would also overlap the wheat bonus in Madrid's radius. Is this bad? Maybe not. Being able to micromanage growth vs. production at this early stage may be beneficial, and by the I mean, allowing City #3 and Madrid to separately enjoy the benefits of the wheat bonus. With City #3 utilizing the wheat, we could shift temporarily to a strong shield production in Madrid and back to food/growth as needed. Also, this set up does not preclude a stable supply of silks since we have another source to our south. (try saying that 5 times fast )

Anyway, just throwing out some questions. Again, good graphics

	17-12-2002 02:13									#8
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I shall attempt to provide further Information on the Northern Site, as soon as My Sons have been able to rest up from their Arduous Journey and I can further Interrogate them.

[OOC] I'l try to provide some close ups of that site soon, but the SPDG calls.....I just got my FTP space back, so I'll provide better Graphics shortly.

[EDIT] I've put up the larger pictures from my FTP Space. Thanks Again to Dejon for providing some of his space, initally.

The placement with the third plan requires that the city to the NE be on the coast and that that actual Coastline allows for a City at that spot.

Personally, I don't like to have Cities overlap too much, because of the Micromanagement Issues. It's almost a nightmare in the SPDG. I can see some Overlap, because of Terrain, or having the overlap on Terrain in places that won't be used for a LONG time.
[/Edit]
[/OOC]

Senor Iwana Eta Tamali

Last edited by E_T on 17-12-2002 at 02:25

	17-12-2002 02:55									#9
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I would use a modified Plan 3

except, un-overlap Madrid on all cases

Madrid needs its room to grow,

otherwise, the more coastal cities, the more i like. A strong navy might become an important factor.

Cities on rivers is always a good thing... the jungle should be cut fast, and we could have a great starting position overall.

	17-12-2002 03:07									#10
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We aren't going to know which plan is ultimately superior until we see the land to the southwest that would comprise those 1-2 cities out there. For now, I agre on the city location for the valley of the cows.

	17-12-2002 03:38									#11
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actually, what if we move that Valey of the Cows city one over SW?

we would only lose on hills mountain and jungle, and possibly gain on better forest and grassland

	17-12-2002 03:57									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot actually, what if we move that Valey of the Cows city one over SW? we would only lose on hills mountain and jungle, and possibly gain on better forest and grassland

I believe the idea is to keep our cities close together for defense and to prevent enemies from being able to wander in between our cities. The present location shares borders with Madrid and is reachable in two turns from Madrid (another tile would make it three turns). If there is more good land further SW or W, then we can make more cities.

	17-12-2002 04:27									#13
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I prefer Plan #3. We would just have to post a guard in the Wheatfields to keep out the workers and slaves from the new city. Or we could make it the Despot’s Vacation Palace.

#1 is very bad because it lacks a coastal city which we need. Yes, four squares don’t get used in #2 and #3, but those four are just useless desert anyway and if they do turn out to have something in future times, our boundaries will have long included the squares.

	17-12-2002 04:38									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot actually, what if we move that Valey of the Cows city one over SW?

The aroma from 2 giant hills of steaming cow plop left by the giant cows will waft over the city and no one will live there unless they have to. Unlike Madrid, the Valley of the Cows has no sea breezes to blow the smell out to sea. The other site is far enough away from the cow plop that it can be endured until the slaves clear the nearer hill away.

do you think the other civs will want to trade us something for an infinite supply of luxury cow plop?

	17-12-2002 06:10									#15
	[OCC] Suggested name for City near the Cows Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

[ooc]

I suggest that the City be named Pamplona, in honor of the Yearly Running of the Bulls.

I don't know how to roleplay this part but I'll Try

[/ooc]

Exaulted Leader, Togas, I have a bit of further Information about the Valley of the Cows. My Sons told me of having been Run off from the Cattle Herds by some Magnificant Bulls. One of these Large Males had almost Gored My Eldest Son, but he was able to get out of the way at the last moment.

[ooc] winging it here[/ooc]

Because of the hazards that they have faced in bringing us these Reports and for these Magnicicant Bulls, I request that you name the City that is soon to be built there, Pamplona.

Senor Iwana Eta Tamali

	17-12-2002 06:46									#16
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I'd also say go with Plan Three. It provides, I think, the most benefits to our people, and brings in much better amounts of land and wealth. This should be our manifest destiny, our westward expansion, and our goal for the next couple of hundred years.

Gastronome thinks so too, though his opinion matters not, for he is just a filthy stinking stupid slave with just as many brains as those cows out there. Don't say it to his face though.

As for those cows, and their...plops...I see them as our only major threat in expansion. For a start, they are giants. The males could produce good meat in our factories, and provide some wonderful entertainment, yes, but they are still giants, and as we found out a few thousand years back when that giant fellow Grogrok and his friend, the giant cow Audhumbla, came to eat the humble people of old Madrid, giants are nasty chaps. Perhaps we should attempt to tame them, shrink them to a better size, milk them, eat them, and use them for our new national sport...checkers. Well...maybe we shouldn't use them for that sport...perhaps we should use them for bull fighting. However, to the point, in their present state, they are taller than a man, as my brother and uncle can tell you. They witnessed as one, while chewing a giant cud, did a...plop onto one of our scouting guys...he died instantly. The only fatality in the whole expedition. So, we must be on our guards.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	17-12-2002 07:46									#17
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As for city names... I suggest that we go ahead and start on the regionalization of our empire that we discussed in the real history of Spain threads. The idea would be to eventually divide the empire into duchies (regions) with their respective regional governors underneath the supreme leader (eventually the monarch). For roleplaying as Spain, it would be good for each region to have its capital be appropriate ("Madrid" for Castile, "Barcelona" for Cataluna, etc.)

	17-12-2002 20:56									#18
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Pamplona is a clever name, and I would love to call City #2 Pamplona, but it might give too much of a hint to the other civs as to what is there.

	17-12-2002 21:25									#19
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We can arrange an annual bull run in Pamplona!
(ooc: and we can kill our characters there if we want)

It would give foreigners a hint about one resource,
but who really cares about our bulls?



BTW: I think the expansion plan with ocean access is good.
(plan 2, I suppose...)

	17-12-2002 21:44									#20
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Agree with ninot, plan No 3 without the overlapping on madrid, okay?
Also,I can see far in the future a day when we will make cases full of cow plop, and use it to blow up whole cities!

	17-12-2002 21:56									#21
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Looking at number three, I like the cow city, and the coastal-silk city as our first two. I'd like to see more of the surrounding area on cities 4 & 5, and I agree with Ninot, against overlapping Madrid in any case.

	17-12-2002 23:05									#22
	Remove this text

[OOC]

After looking at the Latest map posted by Dijon (3450AD), it looks like the plan #2 would be the best (at least for the Northern side of Madrid), as the NE'ern most City would be in the Water, if using Plan 3.

I'll see if I can post some new pictures in a day or so

[/OOC]

	17-12-2002 23:40									#23
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Overlap is not an issue until late in the game with sanitation. By the time that occures, we will hopefully have the continent under our control. Better in the beginning to let our core cities overlap 4-5 tiles (total, 2-3 with any one city) so that we can micromanage better, use our workers more efficiently, and keep a high production from the get go. Defensively, it make it much easier to send reinforcement from one city to another. Harder to penetrate into our core. All around a better situation. Efficiency in this instance is not nearly as critical as one may think. Remember, until sanitation, we have a max city size of 12....

	18-12-2002 01:14									#24
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IMHO the plan number 1 is the one that makes the best use of the terrain, but has the big con of no placing any city next to the coast.

Plan number 3 is also good but overlaps Madrid in its most precious land, so I would agree about going to plan 3 but espacing the cities to not overlap with Madrid.

Anyway the second city should be placed at Cattle Valley, because is the one with better growing posibilites.

	18-12-2002 04:33									#25
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We could name city #2 "Paf", which according to my dictionary is the Spanish word for the noise we represent with "plop".

	19-12-2002 11:51									#26
	New Maps for 3400BC Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

[ooc] with the new areas explored, I've made some new Maps. Site #6 is just a place holder for the known area for the time being.[/ooc]

Oh Great Togas, our most high Exhalted, I have further possibilities for our first wave of the expansion of your Great Empire.

The first site, #1, is the Valley of the Cows and The Actual Site has been surveyed and is ready for the Settlers to Arrive.

The Next Site, #2, will most likely be the next City built, as I remember your Chief Architect wanting to build some sort of Lighthouse. This City will also Bring the Luxury of Silks to our Great Nation and your Court.

Unfortunatley, the Coastline to the Northeast of Madrid has limited the placement of Site #3 to just the one place. THis has limited my earlier plans to just this one place. There is Jungle that needs to be Removed, so that the City can properly Grow.

Site #4 will be next to another location of Silks. It's hoped that one day, we can trade this Luxury to some trusting Nation that we meet. We would have to clear some Jungle to make this city a productive part of our Empire.

Site #5's placement is still to be decided, as the different locations have some advanteges & disadvantages to them. In Plan 1, the site is on a Desert plain. The City will still enjoy a full food production for it's citizens, but lacks for defenses. The Plan 2 Option, has the City located on a Hill and would enjoy a better Defense against any possible aggressors. This plan has the City boundary overlapping with two other cities, but those would be no real problem for all of those city sites.

As we still don't know what the full layout of the land surrounding the site looks like, we don't know how fast the City could Grow and what would be needed to make it fairly porductive. It may need a lot of Irrigation and could be limited in it's size for a long time.

The Site #6 is just a placeholder for a possible site in the next wave of our Expansion. It is located on a River, so it could increase to a very large size someday. But it also has some Jungle to be cleared away, so that it too can grow.

Here is Plan #1


And Here Is Plan #2


I hope that these plans meet with your most high Approval.

Senor Iwana Eta Tamali

	19-12-2002 19:00									#27
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More great work, Señor Tamali.

I suspect the best location for #5 will become more clear as we explore further in that direction.

The only other comment I have is to suggest switching the build order of #3 and #4. #4 creates a better buffer for Madrid, has silks, and would speed inland expansion. We will already have a coastal city in #2, so I don't see the need to rush #3.

	19-12-2002 22:06									#28
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As our expeditions continue to explore the world around us, the settlement "big picture" will become more clear.

I want to extend the power and majesty of Madrid in all directions, however, I want to extend our control into El Valle de los Toros first, with a city on the sea to the south second.

After that, I am somewhat torn. I believe the vast jungle may one day become habitable, but it is not in the nature of our people to ilk out a living in such an intolerable environment. We are people of the hills, the plains, and the sea. I will look to all other options before I send a group of Spainards to such a miserable curse as living in a swamp.

--Togas

	20-12-2002 00:55									#29
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Listen up Señores!

To achieve this, we have to create 6 settlers and that would take some time.
Meanwhile, one or two of the locations could be settled by others (!)

In that case, what do we do with those guys?
Is destroying our plans grounds for a declaration of war?

I believe it is... if all diplomatic efforts fails.
We can persuade them to leave before they settle,
or threaten them if that doesn''t help.
In any way we shall have our plans come true one day!
(when they are clear)


Ok, that was my only supplement to the debate.

	20-12-2002 01:38									#30
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After reading Lord Togas' post, I feasted on the hallucenogic cactus once more and wander far south.

I had been thinking this new land might not be so suitable a spot for our third great city. I came to the edge of our world and fearing I might fall off, I hestitated... then stopped. I thought I caught a glimpse of shadows of great schools of fish in the sea!

I know many doubt my ability to make this distinction between reality and fiction while under the influence of the cactus, and actually, I have no defence for that. I will leave it to you to decide.

[ooc]: The shadow is two tiles southeast of our expeditionary force. Having looked at the shadow cast by fish vs. whales, I can say it is definitely not whales But fish will make city #3's growth far easier to manage.