19-12-2002 19:53									#91
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Was anyone else annoyed by the horse charge downhill? A STEEP hill?


All in all, I was rather anoyed by the movie. I still greatly enjoyed it, and it had some really cool bits, but hardly ANY of the storyline changes made any sense, and I thought the ents were really screwed up. The battle scenes were still nice, but I just wish that they hadn't changed so damn much. Or at least that they'd had a reason.

	19-12-2002 20:11									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Kepler What the hell was that voicetrack on the music during the closing credits? Is that the director's 16 year old daughter, or 16 year old mistress, or what? Good god, it was worse than Enya, and that's saying something.

It's an Italian singer named Emiliana Torrini singing a song about Gollum. Personally, it's one of the most beautful songs I've heard in any movie theater... if you go see it again, listen to the lyrics closely, and try to appreciate it.

Arrian: I personally think that Jackson's interpretation of why Gandalf comes back (he DOES die, but is sent back by heavenly powers to finish his work) makes more sense than what happened in the book, and along with it, it makes sense for Gandalf to be the one to lead Eomer and the others to the rescue at Helm's Deep. As for Faramir, again, Jackson's interpretation makes a bit more sense, especially considering Boromir's temptation in Fellowship.

I suspect we'll see the other key components of the second book (the taking of Saruman's power, the battle for Gondor) in the third movie, and that most of the stuff that happens in the third book after the Ring is destroyed (the return to the Shire to find it destroyed) won't happen (since it was out of place in the book anyway)...

	19-12-2002 20:23									#93
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The charge downhill was fine, it's just that Gandalf had the wrong guys with him. Edit: Reismark, I disagree. I always saw the battle with the Balrog to be Gandalf's trial by fire: he takes down a demon, and to do that must use his full power, something he never does as Gandalf the Grey. In other words, the gloves come off. Gandalf will now use his power openly and in full force to battle evil.

The Ents didn't bother me much... although, if memory serves, wasn't it the ENTIRE FOREST that goes to war vs. Saruman, not just the Ents?

For me, it really comes down to Faramir. Tolkein went out of his way to make Faramir more thoughtful, more humble and at the same time more noble than his brother. He figures out on his own that Boromir tried to take the ring, and realizes his brother's error. That's my major gripe.

Gimli's comic relief was fine for the most part, but I think they threw in one or two jokes too many.

Aragorn's fall off the cliff (and of course the warg rider battle that precipitated it) was unnecessary. IIRC, Tolkein has Aragorn and Eomer commanding a desperate rear-guard action to delay Saruman's army so the people can reach Helm's Deep. This was replaced by the warg rider battle in the movie, which doesn't detract from the story but also doesn't add anything.

On the plus side:

Gandalf's battle w/the Balrog was pretty cool.

Gollum/Smeagol was well done. The only thing missing was Sam overhearing one of his "debates" with himself, which explains Sam's dislike & distrust of him a bit better. Overall, though, I was impressed.

The Black Gate was pretty cool.

Helm's Deep was good.

I liked the Ent attack on Orthanc.

-Arrian

	19-12-2002 20:32									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The charge downhill was fine, it's just that Gandalf had the wrong guys with him.

...That and the fact that the orc rearguard had enough time to set up a wall of lances and spears to meet the Rohannin charge. It looked like no horsemen were killed or dismounted when they hit that wall. Jackson should of had the Rohannin charge into an unprepared back line.

But the overhead camera shot of the charge did look extremely cool.

	19-12-2002 20:35									#95
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quote: For me, it really comes down to Faramir. Reismark, I couldn't disagree with you more. Tolkein went out of his way to make Faramir more thoughtful, more humble and at the same time more noble than his brother. He figures out on his own that Boromir tried to take the ring, and realizes his brother's error. That's my major gripe.

Patience, Arrian, patience. Remember that the key component of Faramir's involvement in the book (the battle at Minas Tirith) was saved for the third movie. I think you're going to see him redeemed quite a bit next year in the third film.

quote: Aragorn's fall off the cliff (and of course the warg rider battle that precipitated it) was unnecessary. IIRC, Tolkein has Aragorn and Eomer commanding a desperate rear-guard action to delay Saruman's army so the people can reach Helm's Deep. This was replaced by the warg rider battle in the movie, which doesn't detract from the story but also doesn't add anything.

ITA with you here, but for a different reason. It's clear to me the sole purpose to having Aragorn fall was to play out Arwen's role a bit more, and the way Jackson left it up in the air, it's quite clear to me that Arwen could either be gone for good (I hope) or at Aragorn's side when he is crowned King to top off the trilogy.

quote: Gollum/Smeagol was well done. The only thing missing was Sam overhearing one of his "debates" with himself, which explains Sam's dislike & distrust of him a bit better. Overall, though, I was impressed.

I think Jackson did it better. Sam doesn't need a reason to dislike and distrust Gollum - his appearance and the stories from Bilbo should have been more than enough. The weakness in having Sam overhear one of Gollum's "debates" is that it keeps Sam and Frodo level with each other (because Sam would have a better understanding of why Frodo pities Gollum) when they should be drifting further away from each other as the Ring corrupts Frodo.

	19-12-2002 20:37									#96
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quote: ...That and the fact that the orc rearguard had enough time to set up a wall of lances and spears to meet the Rohannin charge. It looked like no horsemen were killed or dismounted when they hit that wall. Jackson should of had the Rohannin charge into an unprepared back line.

If you see it again, look closely and you'll understand why the Rohannin had such an easy time of it... remember that the Uruk-hai are weak against the light, and there was quite a bit of light shining down from the heavens behind Gandalf and the Rohannin...

	19-12-2002 20:41									#97
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We'll see (about Faramir). I still don't like the change.

I agree re: Aragorn's fall & the role of Arwen. Arwen's role in TTT is strained... at best. The only strong, active female role in Tolkein's story is Eowen, and IIRC, that's mostly in RotK. She slays the King of the Nazgul & ends up with Faramir (a good match, him being so noble and all *ahem*).

Hexagonian,

Yeah, I suppose. In the movie, it was pretty clear that it was Gandalf's power that allows the Riders to break the spear wall w/o getting slaughtered. I consider that minor.

-Arrian

	19-12-2002 21:40									#98
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quote: Originally posted by reismark remember that the Uruk-hai are weak against the light,

Actually, they aren't. That's why they are Uruk-hai instead of merely just Uruk, which is Numenorian (High Speech) for orc (Uruk-hai = high/half orc).

My watching of the movie was marred by exceedingly poor professionalism on the theater's part. The sound track and the video weren't synced, so the action on the screen preceeded the speech at one point, and at another had fallen behind. Furthemore, there were glitches and brights spots interrupting the film (It's only one day old, ferchrissake!). GAH! The only decent thing is that the theater wasn't packed and we were able to get matinee prices on the tickets.

All that aside, I'd give the movie an A-. It's definately more exciting than the first movie.

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Some annoying bits:
They make Elrond seem like an ******* with his daughter, rather than a caring father who doesn't want to see his immortal daughter die

They remove the choice of Arwen Half-Elven. She's not an elf! She's a half-elf, like her father. She gets to make a choice between immortality and mortality.

The make Elrond seem like coward for not renewing the Last Alliance, when Rivendell is too weak to help and has problems of its own to deal with there anyway.

Elves at Helm's Deep?

Why weren't there any farms outside Edoras? What do the Rohirrim eat? Rocks? (Ok, minor nit pick.)

What's with the children? Why do movies always have to have cute children!?! I hate cute children!?! What, slaughtered villages don't evoke enough sympathy, we have to think about the children!?!

The battles were awesome. Best I've ever seen.

	19-12-2002 22:34									#99
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Che,

Good points about Elrond and Arwen. I agree.

-Arrian

	19-12-2002 23:50									#100
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quote: The charge downhill was fine, it's just that Gandalf had the wrong guys with him.

Those horses would have been having "some" difficulties carrying heavily armored men on horseback down such a steep hill. The difficulty would be that they would have broken their front legs and fallen down.

And did anyone else think those orcs broke just a little bit too easy? Come on! These are the Uruk Hai!

In the book a massive forest of nasty looking trees appeared out of nowhere during the morning, and thats what scared the hell out of the orcs. Not a few hundred horsemen charging down a too stepp hill. Though I imagine gandal scared those orcs quite a bit.

	20-12-2002 00:25									#101
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quote: In the book a massive forest of nasty looking trees appeared out of nowhere during the morning, and thats what scared the hell out of the orcs. Not a few hundred horsemen charging down a too stepp hill.

The Huorn forest isn't in the movie?!? Damn, this is sounding worse and worse...

I'd probably enjoy these movies more if I didn't know the books forward and back. (sigh)

	20-12-2002 00:29									#102
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Arwen is an elf. Full stop. Her blood may be a bit mixed (it's a little over 3/4 elf) but as far as everything is concerned, she's an elf--that was part of the choice Elrond made at the end of the First Age.

Having the Rohirrim charge directly into the Uruk-hai was a bit stupid, but I imagine Gandalf helped out somewhat.

Aragorn falling offf the cliff and the hobbits going to Osgiliath was completely pointless, if not counterproductive. OK, so Jackson doesn't have enough time for everything in the Two Towers and pushed up the end. But then why insert a bunch of stuff that wastes time and contradicts the book directly?

	20-12-2002 01:21									#103
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-Orcs don't know fear: They are bred for just one purpose, to make war.. they don't even pity their own kind, so i find the fact that the orcs have fear a bit annoying

-Orcs are ssuch **** warriors. In the movie they're always so full of orcs this and orcs there, but in the end, aragorn etc kill them with ease... In the books i don't see them slaying orcs so easily.. Orcs know how to fight goddamnit!

-The moment when aragorn and theoden charged with about 10 horses against 100000 orcs was also a bit overdone.. the orcs have spears and stuff, they should be slaughtered!

-I wonder where all those horsemen came from at the end of the battle (did gandalf use one of his mighty multiply by 1000 spells?)
Eomers company wasn't that big

-Rohan looks like a poor shite civilization. They are supposed to be hardened ppl but not that primitive.. it looks like they live on a tundra (and at that time it's summer so the snow's gone and you see some yellow grass)

-The orcs aren't just 10000, they look like they're approaching with a million troops!

-I hate cute children too, and the elves shouldn't be there damnit!

-Arwen should have been left out damnit!

i could go on like this for hours...


But still, it's a nice movie but no more... In any case it's a lot better than i expected, after all this is a superproduction so there HAS to be a romance, the story HAS to be simplified (good vs evil, which isn't really what tolkien meant with his story, on the contrary!!!!)


I also found it very funny that Helmsdeep, from afar, looked gigantic, huge, pretty impressive (Edoras is no more than a village on a rock, with wooden shacks..really stupid)
anyway Helmsdeep, in a close view, looks pretty small and puny...

	20-12-2002 02:07									#104
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We do need to keep in mind that a movie can't be the same as a book. There's a lot of stuff in the books that would make for a perfectly horrid movie. The only way it could be done better, visually, is as a mini-series for tv, by someone who really loves the books (i.e., Hollywood can't be allowed to touch it).

That said, orcs really aren't that brave. They are craven, cowardly, break easily. The uruk-hai are better than the average orc, however, but they are still a debased life-form and not as good as men, dwarves, or elves. They have only ever won in battle through superior numbers.

I've seen marches with 10,000 people. Crowds never look as big as they really are, and that looked way more than 10,000 . . . to me, someone who knows better. 10,000 wouldn't have looked that big on film, and wouldn't have been so scary.

Rohan is mostly savannah, but there aren't any tall grass prairies in New Zeland, so we have to make do. It was still beautiful country. Rohan was a poor civilization. They were Vikings who became Cossaks.

	20-12-2002 03:38									#105
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quote: Orcs don't know fear: They are bred for just one purpose, to make war.. they don't even pity their own kind, so i find the fact that the orcs have fear a bit annoying

have you read the books (including The Hobbit)? Orcs display fear on numerous occasions.

	20-12-2002 03:47									#106
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Yes, orcs really only have numbers and fear of their masters working for them. Uruk-hai are another matter altogether. Think about the scenes when the orcs were moving across Rohan with Merry and Pippin. You had a few tough guys in charge trying to do the mission, and a bunch of little weasels who wanted to eat the objectives. Scale that up to Helm's Deep and you have maybe 9,000 cannon fodder orcs mixed in with 1,000 fighting Uruk-hai. The orcs broke and the few Uruk Hai left after leading all the charges would be plowed under.

	20-12-2002 05:24									#107
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When Gollum was in the river, they had to melt the snow to shoot the scene. Like to have froze his yah ha off.

	20-12-2002 05:34									#108
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What actors do for their art. Yeah, I saw that too, Sloww. What was worse is they had to do multiple takes.

	20-12-2002 05:37									#109
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I imagine there was "significant shrinkage".

That was a really interesting behind the scenes special.

	20-12-2002 05:40									#110
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I don't think shrinkage even begins to describe it. I once went swimming in Lake Superior, which never gets much above 58 degrees. I was in for half an hour. When I finally got out, "it" was so cold, it had shrunk so much, I could not pee. Try as hard as I might, nothing passed through those doors.

	20-12-2002 13:21									#111
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quote: It looked like no horsemen were killed or dismounted when they hit that wall.

Gandalf shines with his light into the eyes of the Uruk-Hai on the front. They cover their eyes and their spears go up. Then the horses go into it.

look clostely! It's true.

	20-12-2002 15:11									#112
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I've seen marches with 10,000 people. Crowds never look as big as they really are, and that looked way more than 10,000

To be fair, 10,000 in formation looks pretty darn big. Think of a 10x10 grid of 10x10 blocs of troops, decently spaced. The brain tends to go into pattern-recognition overdrive and overestimate and extend the formation artificially (this is one of the reasons formation came to be, to cow defenders) so it winds up being impressive.

But towards the end, when you have them swarming all over the rampart AND interior corridors AND many fallen AND then many, many more circling the walls, yes absolutely, that looked wrong.

I'll buy that the song lyrics might be lovely -- I don't know, since the woman's horrible voice was so grating that I couldn't bring myself to resolve the phonems into words.

	20-12-2002 15:47									#113
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will see the movie tonight

	20-12-2002 15:51									#114
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Arrian, Gandalf did die after the fight with the Balrog (just like in the book). The fight with the Balrog also finally means the Balrog scene from FOTR makes sense. As you know, Gandalf lets go of the bridge and falls down into the shaft, even though it looks like he well could have been helped up by Aragorn.

Now we understand that Gandalf let go because he understood that the Balrog was far from finished. With its wings it could well have flown back up again as soon as it recovered from the unexpected fall, so Gandalf decided to finish the fight even if it would claim his own life.

	20-12-2002 17:18									#115
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quote: With its wings it could well have flown back up again as soon as it recovered from the unexpected fall

Balrogs can't fly.

	20-12-2002 18:58									#116
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Exactly ... the wings are made from "fire and shadow" and are just to make the Balrog look tough - they probably have very little mass and it is unlikely that they could displace enough air to move the Balrog.

	20-12-2002 19:19									#117
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Of course it could be Gandalf's intention to finish the Balrog anyway, so future generations won't be bothered by it anymore.

Reasons why Aragorn / Frodo didn't went to resque Gandalf are that the bridge isn't stable anymore.
Orcs would start to shoot again.

Boromir wouldn't let Frodo go for the obvious reason that he holds the ring.

	20-12-2002 20:09									#118
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What's with the children? Why do movies always have to have cute children!?! I hate cute children!?! What, slaughtered villages don't evoke enough sympathy, we have to think about the children!?!

I'm guessing that you do not have children of your own. As tragic as killing adult villagers is, killing children is worse for a parent. Most would rather die than see their kids harmed.

Sure, its manipulative on Jackson's part, but its a reminder that war is hell on everyone.

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Gandalf shines with his light into the eyes of the Uruk-Hai on the front. They cover their eyes and their spears go up. Then the horses go into it. look clostely! It's true.

I'll have to relook at that one. It did seem to me that Jackson focused on the orcs raising their spears in anticipation of the charge, and that was what I was thinking about as the scene unfolded.

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Reasons why Aragorn / Frodo didn't went to resque Gandalf are that the bridge isn't stable anymore.

..and everything is happening at the same moment. The viewer is seeing the viewpoint of several chararcters at the same time, so even though the film is taking up 45 seconds, it's probably happening in a few seconds.

BTW, did anyone get the feeling that there is too much of the 'these close calls are too close for realism'. One that jumped out to me was at the Black Gate after the soldiers turn away from their search for Frodo/Sam. It's like as soon as they turn away, the cloak goes up and you see Sam/Frodo. Why don't the soldiers hear any noise?

Frodo at Osgiliath really bugs me. He's about to hand the ring to the Ringwraith and a single arrow into his mount drives him off. Seems the Ringwraith would have had enough force of will to control his mount and simply grab Frodo and/or the Ring. After all, these are powerful creatures that are driven by the will of the most powerful being in Middle-Earth. That will should of kicked in as soon as the Wraith sensed the Ring was there for the taking.

The first encounter with the Black Rider in FOTR was the same way. Tolkien does a masterful job of conveying the danger of the menace without sacrificing realism. Jackson stretches that realism too far.

It's the old Rambo mentality. The heros are impervious to anything that is thrown against them.

	20-12-2002 20:25									#119
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian It's the old Rambo mentality. The heros are impervious to anything that is thrown against them.

They're not impervious to everything. Sometimes they get in really big trouble and an Eagle appears from nowhere to rescue them.

	21-12-2002 06:34									#120
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Saw it.

In the beggining I almost fell asleep apart from that animation of the golumn.

Then I almost fell asleep some more. Then the battle at the fortress started and I woke up.


Nice one.

BTW I luuv multiplexes. We were characteristically late as usual and the only free sits were in the far behind right corner and still we could see the whole thing greatly

They cant compare with the open summer movie thaters but foir that blasted cold winter they are perfect


MADNESS! (as expected) 10 of the 20 movie theaters in that multiplex played LOTM II and they were all full.




BTW I almost cried when the king was freed from the spells and became his self again and again almost cried when they fought bravely to defend their city.
Am I ****ed?

Constantinople must have been an epic battle like this but we didnt have gandalf and the elves.

(j/k)

Worth seeing movie

'night